Brexit process

[UndercoverElephant]

As does staying in the EU.

And what are those compared to what the government is actually proposing?

Ultimately we become an appendage of Greater Europe. This was always about the destiny of the UK: are we to remain an independent country, or become a mere region of the United States of Europe? The negative consequences of the latter are well known: no control over immigration, subject to a bloated, anti-democratic bureaucracy in Brussels which controls our fisheries and agricultural policy.

But these arguments have been rehearsed ad-infinitum. We are not going to agree on the best way forwards, but we can surely all agree that Theresa May has to make a decision on who to let down. Somebody has to come out of this as the loser, and it is in nobody's interest to continue fudging it in the hope that some logically impossible solution is going to emerge.

[johnhemming2]

OK

I admit it.

I dont really care how bendy our bananas are.

What i do care about is how good our public services are and that there is social mobility in the UK. Still we are now to leave the UK whatever impact that has on the poorer people in the UK.

[UndercoverElephant]

Having just watched the start of Newsnight, I am now convinced that Theresa May does have a plant, and it is for a "very soft brexit" which keeps the whole of the UK in the customs union.

I can't personally see the EU agreeing to anything that isn't a complete stitch-up that her own MPs will reject.

[Little John]

Who'd have ever thought we'd end up relying on the DUP to save democracy in the UK?

[UndercoverElephant]

What i do care about is how good our public services are and that there is social mobility in the UK.

Both of which have got much worse since we joined the EU.

[johnhemming2]

Both of which have got much worse since we joined the EU.

On what planet is that true? There may be issues with social mobility and I personally think that is worse, but you really cannot substantiate the argument that public services are much worse than 1972.

[emordnilap]

Who'd have ever thought we'd end up relying on the DUP to save democracy in the UK?

Yes, those fecking Irish are a nuisance.

[kenneal - lagger]

Social mobility has gradually reduced since we abolished Grammar Schools and joined the EU. I wonder which one is the true cause?

[johnhemming2]

Social mobility has gradually reduced since we abolished Grammar Schools and joined the EU. I wonder which one is the true cause?

I tend to agree with you about this that the reduction in the number of Grammar schools has entrenched privilege. Birmingham still has some Grammar Schools, however.

[Little John]

It might have been possible to argue that the abolition of grammar schools has limited social mobility for a small number of people from the bottom rungs of society. But, only if there was the economic mechanism for that upwards mobility to express itself. But, that mechanism itself has fallen away, So, the lack of grammar schools is secondary issue. The primary one is the underlying collapse of the middle class.

[kenneal - lagger]

Grammar schools and full grants enabled many bright working class kids to go to the top universities. I know that quite a few from my old school went from the poorest parts of London on to Oxford, Cambridge and some of the other top unis. One person from my year went on to found Direct Line Insurance I am told, although I don't remember him myself.

[johnhemming2]

The abolition of the direct grant system in the 1970s was followed by a substantial drop in the proportion of state educated children at Oxbridge.

[Potemkin Villager]

The abolition of the direct grant system in the 1970s was followed by a substantial drop in the proportion of state educated children at Oxbridge.

I think the notion that Camford offers students a superior education to other seats of learning is not backed by objective evidence. Many of these institutions alumni evident in public life seem to be total f++kups.

[UndercoverElephant]

From the Guardian rolling update on Brexit:

Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, has said that the DUP spent five weeks trying to get hold of a draft text of the UK-EU Brexit deal and that, when it finally saw it yesterday, it was “a big shock�.

Well, that answers that question. Theresa May was negotiating behind the backs of the DUP, even though the key sticking point was Ireland and she needs their votes to do almost anything at all.

What a cock-up. TM is as bad at management as Gordon Brown.

[UndercoverElephant]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bre ... 92556.html

Title: Jeremy Corbyn's Labour must use its power to stop Brexit – now

Retaining the single market and customs union without full EU membership is a politically unsellable and constitutionally unacceptable halfway house. It does not even pretend to have given effect to Brexit, and at the same time abandons our seat at the table of political change on the continent.

Remember that famous “democratic deficit�? It would be exacerbated. Remember those complaints about immigration? They would not be resolved.

This is absolutely true. Leaving the EU but staying in the customs unions and/or the single market would be the worst-of-all-worlds outcome. Everybody would despise it, regardless of which way they voted at the referendum.

Time to propose an alternative: one that is demonstrably right and can be sold to the electorate.

Brexit should be abandoned – and it should be the Labour Party that slays this particularly loathsome dragon.

[snip]

It should advocate the withdrawal of the UK’s Article 50 notification – crucially, without recourse to anymore referenda.

“Wouldn’t that be undemocratic?� comes the inevitable retort. The answer depends upon which conception of democracy you espouse: an American populist conception that rests upon rule by plebiscite, or one that is British to its core: one with Parliament at its centre.

I am not sure that will slay the dragon. Or rather, it might just create an even bigger dragon. But the truth remains: there are only two viable options. One is to remain a full member of the EU, and the other is to leave the EU and strike out alone, without a deal on Brussels' extortionate terms. The events of the last few days have made this ever more clear - Theresa May has tried to use slippery language to create a fudge, but this strategy could only ever work if there was an acceptable "half-way house" outcome, the details of which are yet to be agreed. What is happening now is that this fiction is being exposed as a fiction.

There's only two ways out of this - a decision has to be made whether we go for a full-on hard brexit, or whether we stay in the EU. And that decision has to be made either by parliament (either before or after another general election), or by a second referendum. If Theresa May and the tory party are two cowardly to bite this bullet, the inevitable result will be a political car crash of gargantuan proportions. Just as the truth about the Irish border is coming to light now because there are no words in the English language that can paper over the ugly truth, the same will rapidly become the case about the halfway house outcome.

The question is what happens first: Theresa May resigns, her own MPs oust her as leader, or Parliament votes no confidence and calls a general election.

If none of those things happens and we get a worst-possible-Brexit halfway house, then the tories will be annihilated at the next general election. We can only hope that out of political self-preservation, her own MPs take action to prevent this outcome.