Brexit process

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

clv101 wrote:Here's one (or many) reasons why I'm certain we won't be leaving with 'no deal' in March 2019:
@sturdyAlex
The UK has no structures or agency of its own for approving and licensing medicines. It relies almost exclusively on the European Medicines Agency. The MHRA is an ancillary organisation. In precisely 15 months UK access to the EMA ends; abruptly if the "no deal" voices prevail.

Where are the UK's preparations for replacing this vital framework? The answer is: Non-existent. Not even embryonic. Just a statement by Hunt this summer that the UK "will look to continue to work closely� with the EMA, but we're ready "to establish our own system if necessary".

The EU started planning to relocate the EMA (currently in London) the week after Art50 was notified to much tabloid chagrin, the idea that EU agencies should be located in the EU having come as a shock. That's just RELOCATING. We, who actually need to REPLACE it, have done nowt.

Having worked for a similarly sized gov't agency for most my professional life, I estimate that in order to "establish our own system" and have everything in place to take over March 2019, we needed to have started two years ago. And even that would be tight. I'm deadly serious.

The setting up will require complex, technical, primary legislation, which will be hotly contested between strong counter-pulling lobbies and interests (big pharma, NHS, patient groups, ethics cmtees) and require extensive consultation, expert advice and debate.

Only at THAT point, can you start looking for a CEO, a board, expert staff, support, training, a building etc. In all honesty, 15 months isn't even enough time if you were ONLY looking at the recruitment of such technical staff. Especially in such a niche area.

Then there's cost. Even by Eurosceptic estimates the UK pays a fifth of an agency like the EMA. It would need to set up the UK equivalent for a fifth of the cost *just to break even*. This is fantasy of course. Testing, assessing and licensing a new drug is inelastic, cost-wise.

This exposes the myth of "saving lots of money by leaving the EU". Much of the money we paid was to centralise essential tasks, like the medicines regime, with huge efficiency and time savings. Not dealing with multiple authorities also reduces costs for pharma cos, ergo prices.

This simple example also puts to bed any "they need us more than we need them" nonsense. Yes, we are an important contributor to the EU. Yes we are also an important market. They *want* us, for sure. But we *need* them. Structurally. Desperately. Not forever, but certainly now.

The day the UK leaves, everything in the EU27 will function PRECISELY as it does now. Money will be tighter. Some of their sectors will face challenges. But none of their rules or processes change. They face no transition. We do -in a myriad ways- and are totally unprepared.

Because medicines is only one of a 100 such regimes that need replacing which will fall on the same unfathomably stretched civil service to do; the same exhausted people trying to also do the other 99 things, as well as renegotiate 700 treaties, on TOP of their ordinary duties.

So, what happens if there's "no deal", in this, as in a thousand other areas for which the UK has simply made NO preparations? This isn't fluff. It's life and death. Sick people will end up waiting for years for available treatments, stuck in a bottleneck of unapproved meds.

Does your faith and patriotism have the magical power to make technical legislation and multidisciplinary agencies just spring into being? Is it unpatriotic to raise the #Brexit alarm or quite the reverse? Am I a remoaner for thinking about this? Or are you a fool for not?
Blah blah blah blah blah.

No deal please.

:-)
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

UndercoverElephant wrote: Blah blah blah blah blah.

No deal please.

:-)
Which is the essence of the debate. There are people that don't like the EU. They are not (currently) interested in the details and just want to get out.

There are other people who don't think it is perfect, but recognise that it has an important practical function.

There really cannot be a debate between those positions as there is no common ground.
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

It's going back to the dark ages of carbolic soap and creosote.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

johnhemming2 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: Blah blah blah blah blah.

No deal please.

:-)
Which is the essence of the debate.
Yes. I am bored senseless of remainers telling everybody that the sky will fall in if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. It won't. We'll find solutions.

I just want the UK to get out, yes.
Little John

Post by Little John »

Yes

Below all of this shit (as if we on here, of all people, do not know it), what we are in the middle of is the final decline of the West - in the short term - and the beginning of the decline of industrial civilization - in the long term - due to our species' absolute reliance on a finite supply of hydrocarbon based energy on a similarly finite planet of 7 billion mouths to feed and rising.

Everything from the collapse of western economies and the hollowing out of their state provision, to the endless resource wars in the middle east and beyond, to the consequently largest forced mass migration of humans across the globe in recorded history, to Trump and the rise of populism across the Western world, to climate change and the biggest mass extinction event since the end of the Permian and, finally, buried in amongst all of this, to Brexit - these are all SYMPTOMS of the long emergency that has now begun.

But hey.... it's all the fault of BREXIT and the sky is now going to fall in cos we voted to Leave ...right CLV? ...right John Hemming?

Oh.... and the Russians... Let's not forget the dastardly Russians... eh?

F--k me
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PS_RalphW
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Post by PS_RalphW »

Then be bored. Brexit will make the rich richer and the poor destitute.
Little John

Post by Little John »

The people who cannot stop f***ing bleating about losing the referendum are variously comprised of the bourgeoisie - who clearly have something to lose - and the petite-bourgeoisie - who pathetically like to think they have something to lose. Meanwhile, going to the poor towns that litter this country and telling the poor that they are going to lose it all is not really going to cut it when they already have next to nothing left to lose.

And if they are ignored again, you're going to see how ugly things can really get.
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

PS_RalphW wrote:Then be bored. Brexit will make the rich richer and the poor destitute.
I am not certain about that.
It seems to me that those who voted remain were largely the better off, presumably because they felt that remaining would be in their interests.

Those who voted to leave seemed to be largely the less well off.

It certainly seems to me that "the establishment" or the "Westminster bubble/elite" are largely the ones still hoping to remain in the EU, or at least to delay or water down brexit.
Is it the poor or the working classes saying things like "free movement of people would have to be preserved" or "we should still be subject to EU court rulings"
I think not, it is the establishment who are hoping to stay partly in the EU, not many are calling for simply ignoring the referendum result, but they are calling for staying "in all but name"
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

Little John wrote:Yes

Below all of this shit (as if we on here, of all people, do not know it), what we are in the middle of is the final decline of the West - in the short term - and the beginning of the decline of industrial civilization - in the long term - due to our species' absolute reliance on a finite supply of hydrocarbon based energy on a similarly finite planet of 7 billion mouths to feed and rising.

Everything from the collapse of western economies and the hollowing out of their state provision, to the endless resource wars in the middle east and beyond, to the consequently largest forced mass migration of humans across the globe in recorded history, to Trump and the rise of populism across the Western world, to climate change and the biggest mass extinction event since the end of the Permian and, finally, buried in amongst all of this, to Brexit - these are all SYMPTOMS of the long emergency that has now begun.
I agree with all of that.
Little John wrote:But hey.... it's all the fault of BREXIT and the sky is now going to fall in cos we voted to Leave ...right CLV? ...right John Hemming?
And certainly don't think it's the fault of Breixt! I really do struggle sometimes as to where you get these ideas. In fact I was quite clear before the referendum that I thought, Brexit would be a good thing for our single largest problem (climate change), and that, in the long term, the sooner 'collapse' of industrial civilisation occurs the better. A few hundred years from now, collapse in 2030 will be better than collapse in 2080 in terms of the state of the biosphere.
Little John wrote:Oh.... and the Russians... Let's not forget the dastardly Russians... eh?
I have very little against the Russians, and in fact think one of the biggest mistakes Europe and especially the UK make in the 1990's was not to better engage with Russia. Russia and Europe have a strongly complementary set of resources for the challenges of the 21st century. I'm to first to say the west being is so keen to demonise Russia is a problem.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Little John wrote: next to nothing left to lose.
Why, then, is it that lots of people want to come to the UK and be officially "in poverty".
Little John

Post by Little John »

Because where many of them are coming from is even worse. Which is why, without full borders and the sovereign right to say who we will and will not allow in, those people you mention will keep on coming in ever larger numbers as the Long Emergency unfolds and they will not stop until this part of the world is as shit as the part they are coming from.
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

And because people coming to the UK have no idea what reality will be. They are by definition moonbeam chasers [or grifters with an international scam], and there is money to be made feeding BS to them.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Little John wrote:until this part of the world is as shit as the part they are coming from.
So this part of world is not as shit as substantial parts of the rest of the world and people here, even the poorest, have something to lose.

QED.
Little John

Post by Little John »

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:until this part of the world is as shit as the part they are coming from.
So this part of world is not as shit as substantial parts of the rest of the world and people here, even the poorest, have something to lose.

QED.
Yeah... right

The old "don't complain, at least you're not black" bullshit
Last edited by Little John on 18 Nov 2017, 22:02, edited 1 time in total.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nd-ireland
Ireland will block progress of Brexit talks without border guarantee

Prime minister Leo Varadkar wants formal promise of no hard border between Northern Ireland and Republic
This looks to me like a showstopper. The UK cannot guarantee anything about the Irish border, partly because it is impossible to do so without knowing what future trading arrangements with the EU will be, and partly because there isn't any viable way to avoid a hard border unless the UK stays in the customs union. So in effect, the Irish are demanding that the UK commits itself to staying in the customs union, before anything else has been sorted out. Which the UK simply cannot and will not do.

There is no way forward from there. For progress to be made, it is absolutely necessary for the EU to talk about future trading relationship NOW. If they continue to refuse to do so, this is game over for the Brexit negotiations. There is nowhere for them to go.
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