adam2 wrote:Not looking good at all, considerable violence on both sides as police try to close polling stations.
NO. The overwhelming majority of the violence has been committed by the Spanish police on the largely peaceful protestors. This is only to be expected:
Franco was victorious and did not lose his war, as Hitler and Mussolini lost theirs, but this must not mean that we should let the dictator’s toxic ideological infrastructure persist any further into the twenty-first century. Supporting Catalonia is a necessary step in putting an end to fascism in Europe
Meanwhile Zero Hedge has this video of clashes between the Spanish police and Catalan police fighting outside a polling station.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
The bottom line is that Rajoy has ****ed this up big time.
The level of violence displayed was totally unwarranted and has been totally counter productive. Interesting times indeed...
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
I've been having it out with a large number of Remainers who are, at present, in a terrible bind of cognitive dissonance over the events in Catalonia. On the one hand, the EU must, at all times, be seen as being *GOOD*. But, on the other hand, what is happening in Catalonia is inextricably linked to EU imposed austerity and the wider push for a united states of Europe and so I am seeing many Remainers engaging in tortuous, mental gymnastics trying to hold these two competing ideas together. It's actually quite hilarious to behold.
The plain fact is, Remainers can't have it both ways and, in attempting to do so, are betraying themselves to be either ignorant fools or willful ones.
Or, just plain liars.
The Commission has issued this statement. It says the referendum yesterday was illegal. But it does not say that the Madrid government prevented a referendum legal in Spanish law, and went on to repress the only one which could take place. It also restates the Barroso doctrine - that if there were a legal referendum on secession in an EU state then the entity seceding would be outside the EU. There was also some game playing with this issue in the UK earlier this year with the SNP where the EU tried to put the Uk government under pressure in the Brexit negotiations. The SNP took the bait, but then later paid for it at the ballot box in the general election because the Scottish people themselves are presumably not as stupid as the SNP. But now, with Catalonia, the line is firm. All political, diplomatic and legal resources are being thrown behind the Madrid state and Rajoy. This is the reality of the EU. Catalonia’s claim to self-determination should have been tested in a legal referendum. Instead, the whole crisis has been driven by Madrid’s attack on autonomy, itself driven by the need to impose austerity during the Eurocrisis. In other words, Madrid is doing the EU's dirty work for it.
The EU's reaction to all of this is the silence of wolves. It would be easy to picture the EU’s reaction if the drama in Catalonia were happening in distant, “barbarian� Eurasian lands. The peaceful referendum in Crimea was condemned as “illegal� and dictatorial while a violent attack against freedom of expression of millions of people living inside the EU gets a pass. In any event, whatever spin may come out over the coming weeks, the silence of the EU betrays the fact Brussels is puling the strings in all of this.
It is precisely because the EU cannot survive the democratic mandates of the peoples of Europe, that they and their vassal regimes in the various states are going to dispense with any pretense of democracy. At that point, all hell is going to break out. What happened to Greece was just the aperitif. The main course has just begun with Catalonia. There's a lot more of this kind of thing to come and not just in Spain.
Little John wrote:On the one hand, the EU must, at all times, be seen as being *GOOD*.
That's a curious observation as I don't know a *SINGLE* remainer who holds the view that the EU must always be seen as being good. Every remainer I know can reel off a list of not-good aspects of the EU.
Worth looking at this topic from PS 2005 especially the introductory post but this is good too:
RogerCO wrote:
mrkinnies wrote: In the Neo-con manifesto/programme there are number of basic ideas, one being that political stability can only be maintained if it is united against an external threat and if no threat exists one should be invented ...
- the leader must always deceive the people
- the leader does not need to conform to any moral code
- religion should be used to bind the people together
- Secularism should not be allowed as 'it leads to critical thinking and dissent'
There used to be a word to describe that set of beliefs...it was called Fascism (see definition here). My parents' generation were involved in a war to stop its spread.
Last edited by emordnilap on 03 Oct 2017, 14:38, edited 1 time in total.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Little John wrote:We he got it about bang on didn't he
Not bad eh? I wonder where he is now.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
(Hiya, persons in the distant future: if can't see what the fuss is about because the link doesn't work, it's a 38 second video on what is currently called a 'Twitter' account of hundreds of thousands (into the million or more?) of protesters, following the barbarous response of the Spanish government to a simple, peaceful expression of will.)
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
A mate of mine who lives in Catalonia just posted this on Facebook today:
There's been a general strike here today, and further huge demonstrations across Catalonia in protest at the actions of the police on Sunday, and I can tell you that people are genuinely nervous about the way things are going. Its clear that the Spanish government are not interested in solving the problem even though they wish it would go away. The politicians are simply refusing to listen to the people, because in Madrid, they see the problem as being noise coming from a minority of people who don't vote for them anyway. They just want to stop the noise and carry on with their way of doing things. However, their indifference over the past few years has only made the noise get louder, and on Sunday they moved from indifference to violent oppression. That has turned up the volume even further, and today Catalonia stood still in protest...even the banks were closed...and hundreds of thousands took to the streets again. In Madrid they still refuse to listen, they point to the constitution and talk about upholding the law, but do nothing to address the grievances of the noisy minority. The rhetoric becomes more absurd every day. Today I heard a senior member of the Spanish government declaring that the Catalan separatists actions were 'nazi-like', and that we must guard against the rise of the far right!!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!
They're very welcome. They'll find plenty of sensible suggestions, a wide variety of opinions and quite a few ideas for looking after oneself in a degrading world. And a few nutters who you'd meet in the pub.
Maybe something will click.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
especially the introductory post but this is good too:
