Are we on the brink of an electric car revolution?

Pepperman · Post by **Pepperman** » 26 Jun 2017, 20:04

fuzzy wrote:Any guesstimates of the battery life of mainly fast charged packs?

It was recently discovered that Tesla will restrict the kW you can drop into their battery packs on Superchargers after you've used Superchargers a certain amount in order to preserve battery life. Fair enough really.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 27 Jun 2017, 10:16

Pepperman wrote:The slow charging must be smart and all charging needs to be dynamically priced.

and it would take very little effort to provide this information prior to hooking up, so you can see at a glance what it's going to cost then or later.

Pepperman · Post by **Pepperman** » 27 Jun 2017, 15:35

Exactly. Where I hope we'll get to is a point where the driver simply instructs the vehicle to recharge for an 8am departure, and it will do it at the optimum time taking advantage of the lowest electricity prices and maximising balancing revenue.

The DNO and transmission operators are happy knowing they have a dispatchable resource to play with that night and you toddle off to work the next day with a full battery, recharged for pennies, without having had to lift a finger other than tell the vehicle when you would need it again.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 28 Jun 2017, 10:31

Here's an very entertaining and thought-provoking article.

I think Ralph might enjoy it, comparing the author's figures with his own experience.

The section on repairs is interesting.

The most significant repair cost on an electric vehicle is from worn tires. [my bold] For emphasis: The total cost of owning an electric vehicle is, over its entire life, roughly 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of a gasoline-powered vehicle.

It's significant, too, that Texas, of all places, is approving AV testing.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 26 Jul 2017, 09:58

So, are we?

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 26 Jul 2017, 11:20

emordnilap wrote:Here's an very entertaining and thought-provoking article.

I think Ralph might enjoy it, comparing the author's figures with his own experience.

The section on repairs is interesting.

The most significant repair cost on an electric vehicle is from worn tires. [my bold] For emphasis: The total cost of owning an electric vehicle is, over its entire life, roughly 1/4 to 1/3 the cost of a gasoline-powered vehicle.
It's significant, too, that Texas, of all places, is approving AV testing.

It's just another cherry picked article. He is comparing a prius which is hybrid with an electric vehicle. He says a prius taxi in an urban cycle does 600000 miles. No one doubts that an optimally charged battery that can recharge from petrol lasts well, but an all electric vehicle model fails outside of short urban journeys. His tesla taxi example follows 1 journey, so the company can predict the range safely. Then he gets moist over communal self driving cars - how sad is that? We have had buses, taxis and trams for centuries. I have always thought that hybrid makes total sense in the UK, and will be the last fossil fuel tech.

Post by **adam2** » 28 Jul 2017, 10:04

I think that an EV revolution is approaching, and far more rapidly than I expected.
Tesla Motors in the USA are spending a vast sum on upgrading their battery factory to make a new improved battery cell for EVs.
BBC news reports refer to a growing demand for electric vehicles, not just cars but large and heavy vehicles including trucks, buses and refuse collection carts.
I doubt that we will see the TOTAL demise of FF vehicles for decades yet, but I do forecast that the majority of road vehicles will be electric within 20 years.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 28 Jul 2017, 13:44

Electric cars are, indirectly, for the vast majority of their fuel needs, FF cars and this will continue to be the case. Electricity does not come from the electricity fairy. What electrical power that is currently generated via renewables is only sufficient to meet a fraction of domestic residential usage.

Post by **adam2** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:02

A significant proportion* of our electricity is now from renewables, about one third* I believe.
A lot more could be produced, time to build more wind turbines and install more PV.

Under present circumstances, there are limits as to how much renewable energy the grid can accept. Widespread use of EVs could help, if the chargers were remote controlled.

*my estimate. Anyone got an actual figure ?

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:18

20% in the last 12 months.
fissol fuels 49%

http://www.mygridgb.co.uk/last-12-months/

Nuclear, 66.5 TWh
(22.8%)
Biomass, 13.6 TWh
(4.7%)
Wind*, 32.7 TWh (11.2%)
Solar, 20.7 TWh (3.5%)
Coal, 124.9 TWh (7.1%)
Gas, 2.8 TWh (42.8%)
Storage, 3.5 TWh (1.0%)
Hydro, 17.3 TWh (1.2%)
Imports, 0.0 TWh (5.9%)

Wind and solar are growing, coal and nuclear are declining.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:21

adam2, do you see a time when houses could be equipped with a UPS, either for when supplies are interrupted or as a reservoir for the grid?

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:23

PS_RalphW wrote:Nuclear, 66.5 TWh
(22.8%)
Biomass, 13.6 TWh
(4.7%)
Wind*, 32.7 TWh (11.2%)
Solar, 20.7 TWh (3.5%)
Coal, 124.9 TWh (7.1%)
Gas, 2.8 TWh (42.8%)
Storage, 3.5 TWh (1.0%)
Hydro, 17.3 TWh (1.2%)
Imports, 0.0 TWh (5.9%)

Those figures look strange to me (for instance, the last

)

Post by **adam2** » 28 Jul 2017, 17:08

emordnilap wrote:adam2, do you see a time when houses could be equipped with a UPS, either for when supplies are interrupted or as a reservoir for the grid?

In general no.
A UPS for a whole house is a very costly article, and needs a new battery every five or so years, at a cost of many thousands of pounds.
A smaller UPS to serve critical loads or circuits is much more affordable, and such will no doubt become more popular.
I have one.

As regards acting as a reservoir for the grid, this seems unlikely on economic grounds.
Large scale battery storage for the grid is a distinct possibility, but is much easier to provide and manage in a central location.
A trial installation is underway in Leighton Buzzard IIRC.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 28 Jul 2017, 18:27

Battery backup for grid tied domestic solar PV is the new big seller. At present it is to maximise subsidies where you get paid for every KWh you generate, regardless of whether you export the energy or not, and the electricity company only pays you a few pence extra if you do export the energy. Far less than they charge you for each KWh you import. It makes economic sense to save excess energy in daylight, to use when the sun does not shine. The controlling electronics can then use this battery storage as an effective UPS, with separate circuits for low and high power devices so as not to flatten the batteries too fast.

cubes · Post by **cubes** » 28 Jul 2017, 21:37

Little John wrote:Electric cars are, indirectly, for the vast majority of their fuel needs, FF cars and this will continue to be the case. Electricity does not come from the electricity fairy. What electrical power that is currently generated via renewables is only sufficient to meet a fraction of domestic residential usage.

Are FF powerplants more or less efficient than ICEs?