USA presidential elections 2016

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 17 Nov 2016, 22:22

As an example of US presidents affecting the lives of those in the UK (as well as the places they attack, sorry, help to establish a democracy), g.w. bush has caused most of Europe continuing problems.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 17 Nov 2016, 22:30

Lord Beria3 wrote:Trumphobia is the irrational fear of Donald Trump and is immune to either fact nor rational argument. That's what I was referring to woodburner.

tbh I don't think Trump will make much of a difference but the main reason I preferred him was that he was far less likely to stumble into a nuclear war with Russia than Hilary "no flyzone" Clinton.

trump is a prime example of someone immune to fact or rational arguement and believes only in economic growth for his own benefit.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 17 Nov 2016, 23:44

woodburner wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:Trumphobia is the irrational fear of Donald Trump and is immune to either fact nor rational argument. That's what I was referring to woodburner.

tbh I don't think Trump will make much of a difference but the main reason I preferred him was that he was far less likely to stumble into a nuclear war with Russia than Hilary "no flyzone" Clinton.
trump is a prime example of someone immune to fact or rational arguement and believes only in economic growth for his own benefit.

You may be right, but I am not convinced. I think he understands certain things that Hillary Clinton does not, and that is why he won and she lost.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 18 Nov 2016, 00:38

He understands how to appeal to voters' base instincts and to tell it as they would believe it. Fact doesn't have to figure in the performance.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 18 Nov 2016, 06:59

I think the basic point is that Trump is not really that interested in concepts like "The Rule of Law". He views situations as to whether someone is on his side or against him. If they are on his side he is not that bothered as to exactly what they do until such a point as it undermines him.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 18 Nov 2016, 16:43

Billy Connolly

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Nov 2016, 18:34

Yes, it's true that many of the people who are suffering most voted for Brexit, for Trump and all the rest. And yes, if one is prepared to conduct a political "analysis" that's extends only as far as the end of one's liberal-left nose, it is easy to bemoan the "ignorance" of those choices. But, even the most rudimentary of further analyses shows that this is because they are being shafted in two ways, one of them existential and the other immediate and concrete and both of them economic.

The existential one is the inexorable transference of wealth from the poor to the rich on the back of globalist, neo-con, corporate capitalist policies. The second is a consequence of the first; namely the slackening of the restrictions on the free movement of labour leading to those sections of society already suffering horrendously from the most vicious of the existential effects, now having to endure one of the concrete consequences of a mass influx of people, some of whom do not even share their cultural values, competing for what little work there is. If you are one of the people living in these areas, it is inevitable that you are going to be more likely to vote for anyone who promises to deal with your immediate problems. Namely the inward migration one.

The above phenomena is not born, primarily, of racism or bigotry or any of the other slanderous shite the smug, liberal intelligentsia are so fond of flinging their way. It is born of desperation. These people do not have time to worry about the bigger economic picture and they have absolutely no time whatsoever to engage in utopian, liberal-left culture-wars about what it is politically "correct" to believe and what it is not "correct" to believe. Clearly, if the liberal-left do not wake up and fast, the next stop really is fascism.

To quote an old truism, it's the economy stupid. Culture merely provides an after-the-fact (often fairy-story-based) narrative to cover the economic blushes of the day. Marx was right on this as he was right on so many other things. If the mass of people find the useless narrative of the liberal-left to not meet their immediate and pressing economic needs they they will look to others to provide such a narrative. Never mind if those other narratives also bring along with them all kinds of other horrors. The people's instinct for self-preservation will dictate their choices. How did the Liberal-Left think working class people were going to react other than by eventually looking for anybody to provide them with some kind of alternative narrative of their lives as lived, never mind that narrative is poisonous bullshit, that gives voice to their grievances?

Brexit, Trump and the rise of the Far-Right all across the Western world, ALL of this is the fault of the Liberal Left for not providing any kind of REALISTIC alternative to the globalist neo-con narrative. Instead, by way of a political consolation prize, the Left has pissed about with identity politics (which the capitalist class have been more than happy for it to be occupied with while they get on with raping the world) and then has deluded itself it was doing the "real" stuff. We have merely reaped what has been sown over thirty years ago. In the darkest of ironies, the liberal-left has ended up beinglittle more than the useful-idiot-cultural-police (via a form of cultural-fascism of "political correctness") of the capitalist class whenever the working class have had the temerity to complain about the effects of globalist capitalism on their lives, which would be hilarious if it wasn't so unutterably tragic. Well, the working class have had enough, in case anyone hadn't noticed.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 18 Nov 2016, 18:59

http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/yo ... ying-wolf/

Incredible post.

My own view is that Trump is a populist but nothing like the monster made out by the media.

One interesting fact, which the liberal media have ignored in our post - factual era, is that Trump did better among ethic minority voters than either Romney in 2012 or McCain in 2008. The link above provides further facts and data to contest the media myths being promoted about Trump.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Nov 2016, 19:12

I agree that Trump is no more than an opportunist populist. I also think in his own egoistical way he genuinely wants to do right by ordinary American people. Finally, the hysterical liberal left jokers who are busy flinging about labels like "fascist" to describe Donald trump are going to properly shit their pants when they see what's likely coming down the pipe after him. He will look like a paragon of virtue by comparison

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 18 Nov 2016, 19:31

http://georgegalloway.com/v2/?p=1056

George Galloway:

"One week on: what kind of president will Donald Trump be?"

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 18 Nov 2016, 22:23

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/17/eno ... lashpoints

This is a great article outlining the likely course of a Trump administration on trade, relations with Russia, China and the EU.

A healthy alternative to the Trumphobia rampant in liberal and foreign circles.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 18 Nov 2016, 22:39

Trump represents change. US lower / middle class is sick of having their standard of living eroded. Minorities are sick of being shot.

I'm not saying they were right to elect an idiot, but I can understand it.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 19 Nov 2016, 12:55

A really good podcast on the Trump elections by the New Statesman.

http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/11/new ... -john-gray

Spectator podcast good as well, although not quite as bad.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/sp ... ew-normal/

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 19 Nov 2016, 13:25

Catweazle wrote:Trump represents change. US lower / middle class is sick of having their standard of living eroded. Minorities are sick of being shot.

I'm not saying they were right to elect an idiot, but I can understand it.

I am not so sure Trump is an idiot, but what is certain is that no possible candidate could have better represented the status-quo, the political establishment and a future of more of the same warmongering, doing the bidding of the banks and generally not the slightest prospect of change, than Hillary Clinton.

More than anything else, the people who are responsible for Trump's victory are the leadership of the DNC, who thought they could get away with basically forcing people to vote for Clinton because they alternative was worse, even if it meant rigging the nomination to prevent Sanders, who would have beaten Trumpy, winning. It demonstrates just how disconnected that political elite is from the reality of normal people in the US.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 19 Nov 2016, 15:03

Why Trump won and the implications for Brexit:

http://www.labourfuture.org.uk/why_trump_won

I haven;t read all of this. it seems to recognize the failure of the "moderate" political establishment. but, I have not read enough to know if it understands the underlying ecological drivers. My guess is not. but, I would appreciate others' take on it.