EU membership referendum debate thread
Moderator: Peak Moderation
all TV channels and all newspapers that are marketed at people who by outside observers are considered below average, provided heavy brainwashing and fearmongering against staying. Given less propaganda, the leave result could have been different.
Far more people read the Sun than the Remain backing papers combined.
Far more people read the Sun than the Remain backing papers combined.
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Little John
If Labour do not significantly change their tune on the Brexit result and the triggering of article 50, they are in big trouble at the next election
https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisapplegate ... ntBD66mV9n
https://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisapplegate ... ntBD66mV9n
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kenneal - lagger
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I've just read a Facebook post from a friend complaining about councils selling off their land. One of her friends replied "They won't be happy till Britain is covered in concrete..." This reply was from someone who had given me grief over my support for reduced immigration! Many people just can't add two and two and get four nowadays.
I'm just waiting for more grief after I replied thus "That's possibly due to the pressure of our rapidly increasing population, Niki. 300,000 new people a year equates to six towns the size of Newbury added every year."
I'm just waiting for more grief after I replied thus "That's possibly due to the pressure of our rapidly increasing population, Niki. 300,000 new people a year equates to six towns the size of Newbury added every year."
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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woodburner
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Little John
Regarding Brexit, Trump et al. It's always, Always, ALWAYS the economy stupid. Culture merely provides an after-the-fact (often fairy-story-based) narrative to cover the economic blushes of the day. Marx was right on this as he was right on so many other things. If the mass of the people find the useless narrative of the liberal-left to not meet their immediate and pressing economic needs they they will look to others to provide such a narrative. Never mind if those other narratives also bring along with them all kinds of other horrors. The people's instinct for self-preservation will dictate their choices.
So, whose fault is Brexit, Trump and the rise of the Far-Right all across the Western world? It is the fault of the Liberal Left for not providing any kind of realistic alternative. We have merely reaped what we have sown. So, whilst it is all very nice to see the occasional Liberal left commentator FINALLY begin to tentatively, belatedly, begrudgingly concede that the economy might just have something to do with it and it can't all be down to ignorant white bigots, I am afraid it is all too little to late.
Mark my words, if Corbyn does not change his tune on opposition to the triggering of article 50 in the absence of continued membership of the Single Market it won't matter how many of his other policies are sound or even if the media fully air them, which I doubt (all of which I happen to fully agree with as it happens), Labour will be destroyed at the next election alongside all other parties who stand in the way of article 50. At which point we get the very real possibility of a UKIP dominated Parliament. And it goes without saying, if you think that sounds ridiculous, take a look across the Atlantic.
And it will be the fault of the Liberal Left, including Corbyn, if that happens.
Where the F--k is the REAL Left!?
So, whose fault is Brexit, Trump and the rise of the Far-Right all across the Western world? It is the fault of the Liberal Left for not providing any kind of realistic alternative. We have merely reaped what we have sown. So, whilst it is all very nice to see the occasional Liberal left commentator FINALLY begin to tentatively, belatedly, begrudgingly concede that the economy might just have something to do with it and it can't all be down to ignorant white bigots, I am afraid it is all too little to late.
Mark my words, if Corbyn does not change his tune on opposition to the triggering of article 50 in the absence of continued membership of the Single Market it won't matter how many of his other policies are sound or even if the media fully air them, which I doubt (all of which I happen to fully agree with as it happens), Labour will be destroyed at the next election alongside all other parties who stand in the way of article 50. At which point we get the very real possibility of a UKIP dominated Parliament. And it goes without saying, if you think that sounds ridiculous, take a look across the Atlantic.
And it will be the fault of the Liberal Left, including Corbyn, if that happens.
Where the F--k is the REAL Left!?
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kenneal - lagger
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From what she said in her Mansion House speech Teresa May gets it. She sees that not delivering Brexit will deliver UKIP into a majority, or at least into a significant position of power, in Parliament. Labour will founder on Corbyn's and the left in general's pro migration/pro Europe stand. I think that May can persuade most of her MPs to follow her lead with the threat of being unseated by UKIP if they are too pro Europe being drummed into them.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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Potemkin Villager
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Didn't somebody once coin a phrase along the lines of "the longest political suicide note in history"? Brexit certainly is a case of this although it is still not exactly clear who the political victims are going to be.
Overconfidence, not just expert overconfidence but general overconfidence,
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
is one of the most common illusions we experience. Stan Robinson
"not delivering Brexit "kenneal - lagger wrote:From what she said in her Mansion House speech Teresa May gets it. She sees that not delivering Brexit will deliver UKIP into a majority, or at least into a significant position of power, in Parliament. Labour will founder on Corbyn's and the left in general's pro migration/pro Europe stand. I think that May can persuade most of her MPs to follow her lead with the threat of being unseated by UKIP if they are too pro Europe being drummed into them.
It's becoming very clear that no one knows what 'Brexit' actually is. What does it actually mean to deliver Brexit?
A UKIP majorly is highly unlikely, even with 4+ million votes they only returned 1 MP, who was really a Tory defector. The only way UKIP are going to get 100+ MPs under our current system is with a split of the Tory party... possibly but again not likely IMO.
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Little John
Bollocks.
The only people who seem to be "confused" about what Brexit "means" are liberals like you. It means very unambiguously that we regain full sovereignty of our own nation. Of logical necessity, this includes borders controls including who is allowed in and who is allowed to stay. it means control of our fishing territories and, finally, it means parliamentary control of our laws. Everything else is negotiable. But those things are not because any dilution of them is a dilution of the vote to leave the EU in order to regain our sovereignty that the EU referendum was designed to settle and it WAS settled. Those who voted to leave won the day.
As for the details of any negotiations with the EU, so long as they do not interfere with the issue of sovereignty mentioned above, it is neither here nor there what is agreed since, in a sovereign state any such agreements are subject to change. In other words, article 50 is required to be triggered in order for the above process of moving towards renewed sovereignty to be enabled and any negotiations, then, should ONLY be done in that context. Thus, any delay on triggering article 50 is a means of stalling that process.
The only people who seem to be "confused" about what Brexit "means" are liberals like you. It means very unambiguously that we regain full sovereignty of our own nation. Of logical necessity, this includes borders controls including who is allowed in and who is allowed to stay. it means control of our fishing territories and, finally, it means parliamentary control of our laws. Everything else is negotiable. But those things are not because any dilution of them is a dilution of the vote to leave the EU in order to regain our sovereignty that the EU referendum was designed to settle and it WAS settled. Those who voted to leave won the day.
As for the details of any negotiations with the EU, so long as they do not interfere with the issue of sovereignty mentioned above, it is neither here nor there what is agreed since, in a sovereign state any such agreements are subject to change. In other words, article 50 is required to be triggered in order for the above process of moving towards renewed sovereignty to be enabled and any negotiations, then, should ONLY be done in that context. Thus, any delay on triggering article 50 is a means of stalling that process.
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UndercoverElephant
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Yes, that is bollocks Chris.
It is obvious what "Brexit" means. What is not so obvious is how to implement it, and especially how to handle the triggering of article 50 with respect to negotiations.
And as for UKIP - a majority at the next election? No, of course not. But holding the balance of power in a hung parliament? Almost certainly if Brexit is not delivered by the time of the next election, which would most likely result in a tory/UKIP coalition (which is the stuff of nightmares).
It is obvious what "Brexit" means. What is not so obvious is how to implement it, and especially how to handle the triggering of article 50 with respect to negotiations.
And as for UKIP - a majority at the next election? No, of course not. But holding the balance of power in a hung parliament? Almost certainly if Brexit is not delivered by the time of the next election, which would most likely result in a tory/UKIP coalition (which is the stuff of nightmares).
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johnhemming2
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>It means very unambiguously that we regain full sovereignty of our own nation.
An interesting issue. According to international and UK constitutional law we have full sovereignty anyway. We are part of a large number of international treaties. Those require that we do submit ourselves to a form of external control and potentially external arbitration.
The Vienna convention does in fact permit us to depart from the EU overnight, but that would not be very clever as a way of doing things as it would upset the other parties even more.
An interesting issue. According to international and UK constitutional law we have full sovereignty anyway. We are part of a large number of international treaties. Those require that we do submit ourselves to a form of external control and potentially external arbitration.
The Vienna convention does in fact permit us to depart from the EU overnight, but that would not be very clever as a way of doing things as it would upset the other parties even more.