EU membership referendum debate thread

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 03 Nov 2016, 10:52

High court rules that Parliament must vote to trigger article 50.

Pound rises to $1.24

Appeal to supreme court a given.

Appeal to European court unlikely.

Declaration of article 50 likely delayed.

How will this go down internal to the Tory party?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 03 Nov 2016, 11:12

This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 03 Nov 2016, 11:29

You mean Tory MPs should go further than UKIP MEPs and and start cutting each other up?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 03 Nov 2016, 12:25

No, I mean people like me. You may recall, there are many millions of us. and we have just about had enough of this shit.

Post by **adam2** » 03 Nov 2016, 13:13

Little John wrote:This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.

I used to consider you view on this to be unduly alarmist, but now I wonder ?

The people have made it clear, via the recent referendum that they wish the UK to leave the EU.
A significant proportion of government MPs are in favour of remaining, as are a majority of opposition MPs.

So will parliament defy the clearly expressed will of the people and keep us in ?

Post by **clv101** » 03 Nov 2016, 18:17

Did you read A C Grayling's letter on this? He make some really good points about how the referendum should be described. 'Clear' isn't a term he's fond of:

https://www.nchlondon.ac.uk/2016/10/14/ ... ober-2016/

The legal decision today was pretty obvious and I'd be astounded if the Government's appeal is successful.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 03 Nov 2016, 19:33

adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.
I used to consider you view on this to be unduly alarmist, but now I wonder ?

The people have made it clear, via the recent referendum that they wish the UK to leave the EU.
A significant proportion of government MPs are in favour of remaining, as are a majority of opposition MPs.

So will parliament defy the clearly expressed will of the people and keep us in ?

The problem is it wasn't a clearly expressed will. It was a marginal result and when you take into account the people who didn't vote it is less clearly expressed. It's an unfortunate manifestation of the poor excuse we have for a democracy.

Some people get a bit cross about it all, but perhaps they are just spoiling for a fight.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 03 Nov 2016, 20:03

You have no idea what is about to be unleashed both here and elsewhere across the Western world.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 03 Nov 2016, 20:41

adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.
I used to consider you view on this to be unduly alarmist, but now I wonder ?

The people have made it clear, via the recent referendum that they wish the UK to leave the EU.
A significant proportion of government MPs are in favour of remaining, as are a majority of opposition MPs.

So will parliament defy the clearly expressed will of the people and keep us in ?

What is beyond any doubt at all is that if parliament does try to defy the expressed will of the people (and it was clear enough) then this will simply not be accepted by the majority who voted to leave the EU. And rightly so.

The only way Brexit can be avoided without a political crisis on the scale of Suez or the poll tax riots is for a second referendum to be held, with Remain winning by a clear margin. The problem for the Remainers is that if a second referendum is held, they'll probably lose it.

This situation rather f***s up EU politics too, because the rest of the EU now really does not know whether the UK is staying or going.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 03 Nov 2016, 20:43

It is important to remember that Parliament consists of three distinct entities. One (the Monarchy) just goes with the flow, but the other two don't necessarily.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 04 Nov 2016, 00:42

Little John wrote:You have no idea what is about to be unleashed both here and elsewhere across the Western world.

Don't I? Well I had better bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
What is going to happen? Please tell.

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 04 Nov 2016, 10:10

Little John wrote:No, I mean people like me. You may recall, there are many millions of us. and we have just about had enough of this shit.

Do pay attention. What we have now is a Brexit process that can be properly scrutinised by MPs of all parties. It's far too complex and important to be left to that May woman and her cabinet. If you want Brexit to be accepted by more people like me this is the way to do it.

bigjim · Post by **bigjim** » 04 Nov 2016, 10:25

adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.
I used to consider you view on this to be unduly alarmist, but now I wonder ?

The people have made it clear, via the recent referendum that they wish the UK to leave the EU.
A significant proportion of government MPs are in favour of remaining, as are a majority of opposition MPs.

So will parliament defy the clearly expressed will of the people and keep us in ?

The MPs also have their own jobs to think about and I expect that some will be afraid of their electorates on this issue.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 04 Nov 2016, 11:35

Stephen Phillips resigns as Tory MP over Brexit.

Another dozen and we will be into a new general election

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 04 Nov 2016, 13:19

woodburner wrote:
adam2 wrote:
Little John wrote:This will end with bloodshed.

And it should.
I used to consider you view on this to be unduly alarmist, but now I wonder ?

The people have made it clear, via the recent referendum that they wish the UK to leave the EU.
A significant proportion of government MPs are in favour of remaining, as are a majority of opposition MPs.

So will parliament defy the clearly expressed will of the people and keep us in ?

The problem is it wasn't a clearly expressed will. It was a marginal result and when you take into account the people who didn't vote it is less clearly expressed. It's an unfortunate manifestation of the poor excuse we have for a democracy.

Some people get a bit cross about it all, but perhaps they are just spoiling for a fight.

It was a marginal result, against all TV channels and all newspapers that are marketed at people who consider themselves above average, providing heavy brainwashing and fearmongering against leaving. Given less propaganda, the leave result could have been more.