USA presidential elections 2016

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 23 Aug 2016, 10:10

So, given that you have identified the problem with human nature in terms of its interactions with both types of system, which type of system do you consider it is most difficult or easy to mitigate against these interactions? Not which is perfect.

Which has the capacity for the least imperfection ?

Or, perhaps more fundamentally, which one is the least ecologically unsustainable?

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 23 Aug 2016, 10:53

Little John wrote:
Or, perhaps more fundamentally, which one is the least ecologically unsustainable?

A double negative in the question but as to which system is more sustainable from an ecological standpoint I think it is clearly capitalism. Free markets will raise prices on items that become scarce and drive people to find or develop substitutes. A bit after the fact of course but neither system has much foresight.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Aug 2016, 12:09

fifthcolumn wrote:Don't include me in your plans for a socialist utopia thank you.
People are better off left to their own devices with limited interference by the state.

Ah yes, turn people's health into a commodity to be squeezed for as much profit as possible. What a great idea!

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 13:07

Little John wrote:Which has the capacity for the least imperfection ?

We do have practical experience of various ways of running countries. Why not look at the various situations say Venezuela, the UK, North Korea, South Korea, The USA, Canada, Norway, Finland, Greece, Spain and try to assess which seem better by whatever scale you wish to use and which worse.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Aug 2016, 14:41

Capitalism is the system that has got us where we are today, on our knees. Therefore capitalism has no credibility when it comes to claiming sustainability. Capitalism has put us in the posiotion of environmental destruction. Hardtalk on BBC news yesterday was interviewing the people fronting the Canadian tar sands business. Their brass necked claims of leading the way in environmental sustainability was something to behold. That's capitalism for you.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 15:32

woodburner wrote:on our knees.

If we are "on our knees" why are people queuing up to come here?

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 23 Aug 2016, 15:49

Because we are the least on our knees but all things are relative. We've just bailed out the banks yet again to keep the system from failing: a fine example of capitalism or should that be socialism?

The whole world is searching for more cancerous growth and oil and gas at a time when virtually the whole world signed up to the Paris accord to limit greenhouse gas emissions. So it looks as if we are well on track for the Limits To Growth BAU collapse in the environment and finance in the early part of the 21st century.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 16:10

kenneal - lagger wrote:Because we are the least on our knees but all things are relative. We've just bailed out the banks yet again to keep the system from failing: a fine example of capitalism or should that be socialism?

What happened to the Banks in the UK in the last decade (which was not "just") was that some banks were part or totally nationalised.

I accept entirely that we face some real difficulties down the track. However, to claim that we are "on our knees" as a country is clearly nonsense.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Aug 2016, 16:42

johnhemming2 wrote:
woodburner wrote:on our knees.
If we are "on our knees" why are people queuing up to come here?

Because they are face down in the mud.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 19:24

You need to try to identify some form of objective system of measurement to identify what standards or qualities of life people have.

Coming back to the issue of the US election. It was argued that the MSM (whoever that was) were covering up on the issue of Hilary's health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaqVW9NUjzA

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Aug 2016, 20:02

johnhemming2 wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote:Because we are the least on our knees but all things are relative. We've just bailed out the banks yet again to keep the system from failing: a fine example of capitalism or should that be socialism?
What happened to the Banks in the UK in the last decade (which was not "just") was that some banks were part or totally nationalised.

I accept entirely that we face some real difficulties down the track. However, to claim that we are "on our knees" as a country is clearly nonsense.

It's not a country problem, it's a global one.

Putting political spin on everything is the nonsense.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 20:10

I accept that the certainties of 40 years ago are no longer there. This which is mainly a technological issue is an important issue.

However, if we look at the standard of living for most people not living in War Zones.

Is it better than 40 years ago or worse. If worse which countries are worse and which countries better.

How do you measure this to come to your conclusions?

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 23 Aug 2016, 20:50

Simply picking at the scabs will not heal the wound. Einstein’s view is useful here ‘Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.’ or the alternative simplified version. ‘Most things that can be measured don’t matter, and most things that matter cannot be measured.’

This may take you some time to understand

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 23 Aug 2016, 21:04

johnhemming2 wrote:I accept that the certainties of 40 years ago are no longer there. This which is mainly a technological issue is an important issue.

However, if we look at the standard of living for most people not living in War Zones.

Is it better than 40 years ago or worse. If worse which countries are worse and which countries better.

How do you measure this to come to your conclusions?

It's worse in those countries near the equator and also those who have been f***ed over by capitalist countries. There is a good deal of overlap between the two. It is less worse in those countries doing the f***ing over.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 23 Aug 2016, 21:16

It is is merely a theological question and one of faith then I am sorry I will not worship at the Church of JC (Jeremy Corbyn).