Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2016, 19:58

You are probably right. I have not checked.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 08 Jul 2016, 23:05

johnhemming2 wrote:In that reality is recognised by humanity as being observed and the observable state is not predictable notwithstanding the deterministic nature of the schroedinger equation it still results in a reality that is non-deterministic at a smaller scale.

Okay, one last go at getting you to understand this:

To state the bleeding obvious, determinism lies in opposition to free will. In establishing free will, we are trying to find out whether an agent has a choice between carrying out action A or B when he carried out action A. Determinism says that he had no choice in carrying out action A and free will says that he had a choice to carry out action A and could have chosen to carry out action B. Current understanding of quantum mechanics tell us that, scientifically speaking, not everything that happens is 100% caused by classical physics. There are some aspects of the physical world, however tiny, which have been caused unpredictably. In other words, via the action of quantumly uncertain events.

But, given the above, the pertinent question is do such quantum events allow the agent to have a choice between actions A or B? Clearly, this is not the case. The reason being that either action A was carried out as a summation of a 100% classical causal chain, or action A was carried out as a summation of a classical causal chain and the indeterminate behavior of subatomic quantum particles. In other words, action A is still 100% causal and still determined since unpredictable quantum mechanical events still caused the classical events that eventually caused action A. In other words, they still determined action A.

In short, be the universe described in quantum mechanical terms or classical terms, so far as free will is concerned, this only leaves two possibilities. Either the actions of an agent are fully classically caused or they are the summation of a series of random probabilities, each of which is still a cause, just a non predictable one. But, in both cases, the agent has no choice.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 09 Jul 2016, 07:49

Could it be argued that quantum uncertainties occur at such a small scale and in such huge numbers that they effectively cancel themselves out as regards something as complex as the actions of a human ?

Personally, I believe that given enough information, time and processing power it's probably possible to predict the actions of an individual with considerable accuracy.

We are just biological machines after all, our programming is what drives us.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 09 Jul 2016, 07:52

The choosing process is clearly something that happens in the physical world. In being as I assume you would agree that we are self aware entities we also operate a choosing process. The existance of that is a form of free will. The question is whether as a whole reality is deterministic or whether it has elements that are not. I think you accept that not all of reality is deterministic. I would argue that there is part, therefore, of that reality that enables the choosing process to be non-determistic within the context of a mainly deterministic universe, although it does not prove that the choosing process is non deterministic.

In any event we revert to the question as to whether people have the ability to choose. That is obviously the case. I accept that the choices people make can be substantially predicted depending upon the circumstances. Obviously those circumstances include the matter as to whether the individual making the decision also has a view as to whether they have the ability to make the choice.

Hence even if the universe is fully deterministic, which I do not believe it is, from the perspective of human beings (which in the end is a perspective that is relevant to us) people do have choices and much that many are determined by their circumstances they do have free will.

You (Little John), for example, have the choice to be rude to me or not. Normally you are rude so normally you would make that decision. You are, however, capable of not being rude. To that extent you have free will.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 09 Jul 2016, 08:34

johnhemming2 wrote:The choosing process is clearly something that happens in the physical world. In being as I assume you would agree that we are self aware entities we also operate a choosing process. The existance of that is a form of free will. The question is whether as a whole reality is deterministic or whether it has elements that are not. I think you accept that not all of reality is deterministic. I would argue that there is part, therefore, of that reality that enables the choosing process to be non-determistic within the context of a mainly deterministic universe, although it does not prove that the choosing process is non deterministic.

In any event we revert to the question as to whether people have the ability to choose. That is obviously the case. I accept that the choices people make can be substantially predicted depending upon the circumstances. Obviously those circumstances include the matter as to whether the individual making the decision also has a view as to whether they have the ability to make the choice.

Hence even if the universe is fully deterministic, which I do not believe it is, from the perspective of human beings (which in the end is a perspective that is relevant to us) people do have choices and much that many are determined by their circumstances they do have free will.

You (Little John), for example, have the choice to be rude to me or not. Normally you are rude so normally you would make that decision. You are, however, capable of not being rude. To that extent you have free will.

To paraphrase;

"I believe that free will is real...so there...."

You have not actually addressed a single point put to you.. Okay, done.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 09 Jul 2016, 08:47

You argued that there is no choice. I argued there clearly is a choosing process. You don't have to respond to this post. You have a choice.

Automaton · Post by **Automaton** » 09 Jul 2016, 09:56

I find it interesting that people feel it is up to those who don't believe in free will to prove that it doesn't exist. This is, of course, back-to-front from the scientific point of view.

Just as for gods, or spirit, or ghosts, or Bertrand Russell's cosmic teapot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot), the onus is on the believer to prove the existence of what they believe.

And so we can simply put out a straightforward challenge: tell us one thing, one choice you have ever made, that wasn't entirely dependant on your biologically expressed experience or knowledge (both direct and vicarious). Think hard about it, just to be sure...

Also interesting is that in everyday reality, everyone behaves as if we don't have free will. As a simple example, if someone does something unexpected, we immediately ask.... "why did he do that?". We don't consider it to be an act of the person's 'free will'. We only really use the concept when it comes to questions of punishment....

Yes, people do make choices, but making choices doesn't equal free will. So I ask again... what is this 'free will' that believers talk about anyway?
It's an important question, because believing in things that aren't there allows and encourages us to avoids facing reality. Unless we're looking at why things happen, we can't make good decisions about how to do things differently in future. (I know that this sounds like a contradiction, and I won't pretend that it's not confusing, but while things right now are exactly as they must be, the future has to be created from what we do from here on....). Why does the rapist rape, why does the abuser abuse? If we don't find out and change what causes it from here on, then there will continue to be rapists, and continue to be abusers. To simply blame 'free will' is washing our hands of a better future. And the same applies to all environmental and social issues.

Automaton · Post by **Automaton** » 09 Jul 2016, 09:58

johnhemming2 wrote:You argued that there is no choice. I argued there clearly is a choosing process. You don't have to respond to this post. You have a choice.

if Little John replies, there is are causes for him doing so. If he does not reply, there are causes for him doing so. Choice? Yes. But not 'free will'.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 09 Jul 2016, 10:05

I think we all accept that there is in face a choice and a choosing process. The first question is whether the choice is determined or not. The second question is whether it matters from a human perspective if indeed it is in from a theoretical perspective determined.

Part of the way human society functions is to make people responsible to some extent for the way in which they exercise their choices. In other words to accept that people do have choices ie free will. I would not wish to change that assumption.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 09 Jul 2016, 15:21

johnhemming2 wrote:...The vast majority of migrants are good people just trying to improve their lives. However, there is sometimes (but not always) a conflict between their interests and the interests of the people living in the place that they are migrating to.
....

As in the Americas, Australia and more recently Palestine.

Palestine is particularly problematic because a few thousand years ago God gave a people permission to drive out the original occupants of "the land of milk and honey" and to live there themselves. Unfortunately a couple of thousand years ago that people were careless enough to lose it to someone else. Now they are claiming it back as God had given it to them and a bit of ethnic cleansing is OK with God's permission!

Automaton · Post by **Automaton** » 09 Jul 2016, 17:41

johnhemming2 wrote: I think we all accept that there is in face a choice and a choosing process. The first question is whether the choice is determined or not. The second question is whether it matters from a human perspective if indeed it is in from a theoretical perspective determined.

The choice has to be determined, or it can't be made (I refer you back to my challenge above). And I think it does matter from a human perspective, if we want to make positive change.

johnhemming2 wrote: Part of the way human society functions is to make people responsible to some extent for the way in which they exercise their choices. In other words to accept that people do have choices ie free will. I would not wish to change that assumption.

I agree that society uses the concept of free will to place blame (or as you put it, " to make people responsible") for things that are wrong with the society itself, rather than those people. Personally, I would wish to change that assumption, because then we might be able to improve things.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 09 Jul 2016, 17:57

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. However, I think the majority would support a general continuation of the concept of personal responsibility for personal actions.

Automaton · Post by **Automaton** » 09 Jul 2016, 18:04

johnhemming2 wrote:I don't expect everyone to agree with me. However, I think the majority would support a general continuation of the concept of personal responsibility for personal actions.

Indeed I'm sure they will, even though it's wrong. Because after all, they don't really have a choice.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 09 Jul 2016, 18:42

I have had a number of choices in my life; whether or not to go onto higher education twice, whether or not to emigrate, whether to work abroad, whether or not to go into computing, whether or not to go self employed, whether of not to buy some land for a small holding, what sort of house to build and lots more.

Each one of those major decisions could have made a huge difference to my life and that of my whole family. Whether I would have turned out to be the me that I am now, who knows?

All I know is that my friends who chose to work abroad for the money are all divorced now. Many of those of my friends who earned high salaries are either divorced or not well people or both.

With my chosen path of build it yourself twice I have ended up asset rich and cash poor but quite well off really thank you and I've seen my children grow up and I'm still with my first wife! I'm also in a good position to see the future out quite well as is my daughter and her family who live with us. Our other daughter and boyfriend could also join us quite easily if they wished.

I read a lot of books about resource depletion in the 1970s which set me on my current path. I also went into multi level marketing, Amway, for a while which gave me a lot of instruction in self motivation and brain programming; setting your brain the task of subconsciously directing you in a certain direction to achieve desired goals. (Goal kickers in rugby use a similar technique to subconsciously control the way the body moves.)

So! Was it through choice or destiny. If I was destined to read those books I could have thought, as many people did, what a load of rubbish, life will go on regardless of technology will find a way. Who knows!

Automaton · Post by **Automaton** » 10 Jul 2016, 10:50

kenneal - lagger wrote:
So! Was it through choice or destiny. If I was destined to read those books I could have thought, as many people did, what a load of rubbish, life will go on regardless of technology will find a way. Who knows!

Well, I would say that for every one of those choices that you made, you chose the very best option for you that you could choose; given all of you previous knowledge and experience, and your understanding of what such a choice was most likely to mean. We know from neuroscience that you would have unconsciously made that decision before you were consciously aware of it. And I would say that you couldn't have made any other decision; you couldn't have thought differently than you did, even though it seems otherwise. And I would also say, finally, that I'm glad your choices have worked out so well for you.