EU membership referendum debate thread

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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Automaton

Post by Automaton »

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:Given Hemming's politician's instinct for not actually engaging in honest debate,
What have I said that was not true?
Ok, maybe I can explain it to you. You know as well as anyone that 'not actually engaging in honest debate' does not mean the same thing as saying things that are not true. So what you have just asked is an attempt to re-direct (or mis-direct) Little John's point, and this is itself an excellent example of 'not actually engaging in honest debate'.

Claiming that it is the readers fault for not understanding what you write, by the way (e.g. "What is it about what I said that confuses you? "), is simply insulting, possibly arrogant, or alternatively the sign of a poor communicator. And not at all helpful.

You have a history of making comments on Powerswitch that are sometimes unclear, sometimes 'cryptic', or worse still, open to various interpretations. Maybe that is deliberate, or maybe, again, you are a poor communicator. Given your history as a politician, my guess is that it's just part of your training; i.e. never say something clearly, or that can be shown to be wrong, or you might do badly at the next opinion polls. And certainly never admit that you're wrong... something other people here, myself and Little John included, are not afraid to do. if you are aware that you do it, then you might want to think about why you bring that attitude/approach to your comments here... there aren't any good reasons that come to my mind.

But for whatever reason, I think it's a pity, because sometimes your input can be very interesting. You have experience and knowledge that we don't all share, and your perspective can be helpful. We don't all have to agree with your views, of course, but that is exactly why they are worth hearing; as you yourself have suggested - "... a good idea to work out what the truth is rather than just read things that don't challenge your world view". I don't want you to go away or be banned, I just want you to be honest, and clear.

No doubt you'll take this post as an attack, but it's not meant that way (not everything is, y'know). I believe in cooperation, and growth through debate; and I offer it in that spirit. Just have a think about it.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Please give an example of something where you believe that I am not engaged in "honest debate" and explain why what I am doing is not "honest".
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

johnhemming2 wrote:Please give an example of something where you believe that I am not engaged in "honest debate" and explain why what I am doing is not "honest".
.... I just did.
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Catweazle
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Post by Catweazle »

Here's a handy cut'n'paste for future threads.

"I refer you to Automatons post of Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:21 am."

It should save some time.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

How is the question

"What is it about what I said that confuses you? "

Dishonest?

It is blunt. Little John made the ludicrous claim that I had been obfuscating.

The definition of obfusation is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscation

"Obfuscation is the obscuring of intended meaning in communication, making the message confusing, willfully ambiguous, or harder to understand. "

I simply asked how was it "confusing". He was claiming that it was confusing and I asked him to substantiate his viewpoint. He was unable to do that.

That is actually what honest debate is about. It is about asking people to substantiate their arguments.

I asked you to give an example and explain why it was not honest.

You gave an example, but did not explain why it was disonest.
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

3rdRock wrote:
adam2 wrote:Are you absolutely certain that you require this?
Life is too short to stress yourself with people who don’t even deserve to be an issue in your life.
Don't blame you. Remember we do have a Facebook group (link below), which, without the anonymity, is much more polite!
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

That's a bit devisive having a group that is not accessible, though given that 3rd rock is not averse to casting insults, I suppose that might a good place to go.

If there is a problem on this site, why have you (as an administrator) not addressed it?
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

The facebook group looks public to me.
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

woodburner wrote:That's a bit devisive having a group that is not accessible...
It's a public group. :)
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

Not if you don't register.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

woodburner wrote:Not if you don't register.
It's just one click to follow the group - a lot less onerous than this forum.
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

I thought you'd reply in that vein, it is actually easier to read this forum, you just have to enter a url and press return. Posting is a different matter.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

This forum has lost most of it's appeal for me since even if I post something like "I feel the Pope may be a Catholic" I can expect replies of the vein "You are evilly wrong and I hate you". I stopped posting here regularly after one of the admins joined in.

See you nice guys on facebook.
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

For a long time the moderators here have done little in the way of moderating. One of the clauses which users agree to when signing up is that they won't post abusive comments, and presumably vexatious ones too. There are a couple (maybe more) who post here who, in any reasonable parlance are frequently deliberately offensive. Ok, I admit I might get near the mark on occasions, but often I get the likes of the now departed 3rd rock being offensive just because I won't agree with their opinion. I have also had the same treatment from the aforementioned admin. This has gone away since I stood my ground.

So mods, it is really up to you to stop the decline of PS caused by posts by a few bordering on abuse, (leaving it will allow it to carry on rather like the way EU is embarking on), rather than recommending posters leave and go to facebook.

Don't you think?
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

I appreciate the light touch in moderating. There are a lot worse boards on the internet. I do get wary of the lynch mobs which sometimes start. I think if you see someone blowing off steam at another member, we should never join in. One on one is just about OK, but gangs are the future of the second dark age to come. Let's keep them away from this board as long as possible.
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