EU membership referendum debate thread

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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woodburner
Posts: 4124
Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 22:45

Post by woodburner »

3rdRock wrote:Could this be one of the REAL reasons why the right-wing wanted us to leave the EU?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -loopholes
Crackdown on tax loopholes announced by European commission

Measures to identify real ownership of companies and a law clamping down on offshore avoidance in the pipeline.
Transparency campaigners gave the proposals a mixed review. “We’re pleased to see the commission recognises that transparency is vital to end the system of secrecy which helps allow the corrupt to hide their stolen cash,” said Laure Brillaud, at Transparency International’s EU office.

But the campaign group said major loopholes remained, because registration requirements will only apply to trustees based in EU member states.
Is this a conspiracy theory?

Rather unfounded since the EU hasn't been able to get its suspect accounts approved by auditors - ever. And one accounted who highlighted the problem was unceremoniously sacked, with no small help from Neil Kinnock.

Seems like the Guardian is publishing more and more rubbish on a daily basis.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
woodburner
Posts: 4124
Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 22:45

Post by woodburner »

The EU is going to fail. One of the speakers in the European parliament was berating the UK party leaders who had recently resigned and described them as rats leaving a sinking ship.

So there you have it, an admission the ship is indeed sinking.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

woodburner wrote:
3rdRock wrote:Could this be one of the REAL reasons why the right-wing wanted us to leave the EU?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -loopholes
Crackdown on tax loopholes announced by European commission

Measures to identify real ownership of companies and a law clamping down on offshore avoidance in the pipeline.
Transparency campaigners gave the proposals a mixed review. “We’re pleased to see the commission recognises that transparency is vital to end the system of secrecy which helps allow the corrupt to hide their stolen cash,” said Laure Brillaud, at Transparency International’s EU office.

But the campaign group said major loopholes remained, because registration requirements will only apply to trustees based in EU member states.
Is this a conspiracy theory?

Rather unfounded since the EU hasn't been able to get its suspect accounts approved by auditors - ever. And one accounted who highlighted the problem was unceremoniously sacked, with no small help from Neil Kinnock.

Seems like the Guardian is publishing more and more rubbish on a daily basis.
In fairness to the Grauniad, that was my conspiracy theory. The article was factual.
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

https://www.rt.com/uk/349610-spaniards- ... s-britain/
Spaniards living in the UK are among the many targets of British scorn as police mark a staggering surge in attacks against perceived foreigners. The Metropolitan police registered nearly 600 hate-driven incidents in just one week after the Brexit result.

Since the referendum results were announced on June 24, the Met has been getting between 25 and 50 reports of racial incidents in London every day, law enforcement said.

“We can report there has been an increase in hate crime offenses since the UK EU referendum. So far, between Friday 24 June and Saturday 2 July we have seen 599 incidents of race hate crime reported to the Met,” said commander Mak Chishty who leads on community engagement for the Met, Press Association reported Tuesday.
:( On reflection, I think I preferred Pandora's box before the lid was prized open by the 'Brexiteers'.
woodburner
Posts: 4124
Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 22:45

Post by woodburner »

Er, it was opened by the opportunist "call me Dave".
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

johnhemming2 wrote:True that it used to be harder to get to the truth. However, it is still the case that people rarely try to find out the truth. They are normally happy reading sources that don't challenge their worldview.
People are normally happy reading sources that don't challenge their worldview because it gives them a feeling that they are right; it comes from insecurity and fear. It's the behaviour of disempowered people, who fear losing what little control they have. Finding out (and even worse, acting on) the truth means change, and change is risky and hard work, and they're already working hard enough (and struggling to do so). But in a democratic system that praises competition above all else, and rewards the 'winners' at the cost of the 'losers', they really don't stand a chance (there must always be many more losers than winners).
So please don't blame 'the people' for the mess we're in; they're as powerless as puppets.
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

3rdRock wrote: :( On reflection, I think I preferred Pandora's box before the lid was prized open by the 'Brexiteers'.
The Scottish referendum had a similar effect, so much so that people were afraid to discuss what they voted for in public! An inevitable problem with referendum-type votes is that it strengthens simplistic 'them and us' (black-and-white) type thinking.
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

Automaton wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:True that it used to be harder to get to the truth. However, it is still the case that people rarely try to find out the truth. They are normally happy reading sources that don't challenge their worldview.
People are normally happy reading sources that don't challenge their worldview because it gives them a feeling that they are right; it comes from insecurity and fear. It's the behaviour of disempowered people, who fear losing what little control they have. Finding out (and even worse, acting on) the truth means change, and change is risky and hard work, and they're already working hard enough (and struggling to do so). But in a democratic system that praises competition above all else, and rewards the 'winners' at the cost of the 'losers', they really don't stand a chance (there must always be many more losers than winners).
So please don't blame 'the people' for the mess we're in; they're as powerless as puppets.
+1. John should take a closer look at some of his former colleagues - the puppeteers and, in turn, their corporate handlers.
johnhemming2
Posts: 2159
Joined: 30 Jun 2015, 22:01

Post by johnhemming2 »

Nam et ipsa scientia potestus est.

It really is.
Little John

Post by Little John »

johnhemming2 wrote:Nam et ipsa scientia potestus est.

It really is.
Knowledge is power only if you can act on it. If you can't, then it is merely a burden for most ordinary humans with ordinary reserves of time and emotional/intellectual energy.
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

Little John wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:Nam et ipsa scientia potestus est.

It really is.
Knowledge is power only if you can act on it. If you can't, then it is merely a burden for most ordinary humans with ordinary reserves of time and emotional/intellectual energy.
+1 but bear in mind that John's got plenty of time on his hands these days. :wink:
johnhemming2
Posts: 2159
Joined: 30 Jun 2015, 22:01

Post by johnhemming2 »

Little John wrote:... it is merely a burden for most ordinary humans with ordinary reserves of time and emotional/intellectual energy.
In other words you are claiming that knowing the truth is a "burden" for many people.

Would it be a burden for yourself?
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

johnhemming2 wrote:Nam et ipsa scientia potestus est.

It really is.
Only for the already powerful, who use it as a tool for further subjugation :

'Knowledge is power and it can command obedience*. A man of knowledge during his lifetime can make people obey* and follow him and he is praised and venerated after his death. Remember that knowledge is a ruler and wealth is its subject.
— Imam Ali, Nahj Al-Balagha (599-661 CE), Saying 146. (First known use of the phrase).

* - my bold.
johnhemming2
Posts: 2159
Joined: 30 Jun 2015, 22:01

Post by johnhemming2 »

Automaton wrote:Only for the already powerful, who use it as a tool for further subjugation :
I mean knowledge is powerful for everyone not just those who are themselves powerful.

It is an equaliser.
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote:... it is merely a burden for most ordinary humans with ordinary reserves of time and emotional/intellectual energy.
In other words you are claiming that knowing the truth is a "burden" for many people.

Would it be a burden for yourself?
I know you're not asking me, but I'll answer that one anyway if that's ok, because I think it's an important question.

Yes, sometimes my knowledge is a burden to me, and frankly I think the knowledge of most people who post (and probably read) Powerswitch should feel like a burden at times. We know terrible things, we're watching an inevitable process that is already causing and will lead to further appalling suffering across the globe. If we care about anything other than ourselves, then of course it's a burden at times.
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