EU membership referendum debate thread

[woodburner]

Everything's ok except "but worse" as you can't know. Whether the UK left the EU or stayed in, I suspect things will be a lot worse in ten years, but leaving will not be the key event.

[Little John]

It's not inextricable, it took more that 40 years to get to where we are, it will take decades to undo it all. People are just thinking short term.

Yes, it's not inextricable. But it's the sort of tied-in-ness which will take all the government's efforts for 10 years to produce something similar, but worse, than the current arrangements,


Peter.

So, why will it be worse than the current arrangements?

[Blue Peter]

So, why will it be worse than the current arrangements?

Because it will try to replicate what we have - we really don't want to lose access to the EU market, for instance; and we do like a lot of the EU laws which we've helped enact, etc. - but can't do so in the natural way of being in the EU, so it will have to create a sort of copy of the EU.

The obvious example would be the Norway option for trade with the EU, basically the same status (free trade, but free migration) but with no say on policy*, and paying more in fees since no rebate, etc.


Peter.

*Which the French, and others, will use our lack of say to downgrade the city of London, which isn't part of the argument, but is something to watch out for.

[Blue Peter]

Here's a better example (because it's not from me, but from someone who knows):
The food system is heavily tied into Europe. To sever this web will be a task awesome and unprecedented in complexity.



Peter.

[fuzzy]

Here's a better example (because it's not from me, but from someone who knows):
The food system is heavily tied into Europe. To sever this web will be a task awesome and unprecedented in complexity.



Peter.

That is not a good article. It talks about the philosophy of food supply without actually bothering to list the details. Landowners are paid a subsidy by the EU if they produce crops or not - as long as you own 5 hectares, so crofters are stuffed. The UK used to grow a lot of produce in the channel islands before they decided to be tax havens instead of producers. Now we have cheap produce imports from sunnier places because of IT logistics/no fuel tax on aviation/chilled distribution tech/44 tonne double fuel tank HGV trucks [introduced by the EU] so Spanish lorry drivers can do a round trip without paying UK fuel prices so no contribution to our road costs.

All of these things could change if any govt cared, since the options were previously limited by EU rules. We could grow most food with modern polytunnels all over the UK but the rich are paid not to bother. Even this EU common market access scare is a crock of shite. Mutual tariffs would cause the EU to lose more since they sell us more, and it would encourage home production. The wasted extortion fee for access could be pumped into helping UK SME companies instead of helping multinational tax fiddlers in a common market..

[Lord Beria3]

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

Greer has a superb column on brexit this week.

[UndercoverElephant]

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

Greer has a superb column on brexit this week.

Yes. Bang on the money.

[raspberry-blower]

Jonathan Cook: The Neoliberal Prison: Brexit hysteria and the liberal mind

That is why the debate about Brexit was never about values or principles – it was about money. It still is. The Remainers are talking only about the threat to their pensions. The Brexiters are talking only about the role of immigrants in driving down wages. And there is good reason: because the EU is part of the walls of the economic prison that has been constructed all around us. Our lives are now only about money, as the gargantuan bail-outs of the too-big-to-fail banks should have shown us.

There is a key difference between the two sides. Most Remainers want to pretend that the prison does not exist because they still get privileges to visit the living areas. The Brexiters cannot forget it exists because they are never allowed to leave their small cells.

The left cannot call itself a left and keep whingeing about its lost privileges while denouncing those trapped inside their cells as “racists”. Change requires that we first recognise our situation – and then have the will to struggle for something better.

Jonathan Cook gets it

[Little John]

On this occasion, the Arch druid indeed nailed it

[johnhemming2]

It is odd to on one hand criticise a market economy and on the other hand criticise the part and full nationalisation of the banks that happened a while ago.

We are part of a global market economy. If we try to shut ourselves off from that people in the UK do not benefit.

[raspberry-blower]

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/

Greer has a superb column on brexit this week.

Beat me to it, Beria!

[vtsnowedin]

It is odd to on one hand criticise a market economy and on the other hand criticise the part and full nationalisation of the banks that happened a while ago.

I can't make any sense out of that.

We are part of a global market economy. If we try to shut ourselves off from that people in the UK do not benefit.

You are swapping one set of trade rules for another. If it is a benefit or not depends solely on the quality of the new rules.
Chose wisely.[/quote]

[fuzzy]

It is odd to on one hand criticise a market economy and on the other hand criticise the part and full nationalisation of the banks that happened a while ago.

We are part of a global market economy. If we try to shut ourselves off from that people in the UK do not benefit.

I don't really follow your statement - let me disect:

There is lot of hype about EU free markets. The EU want's to extort 250 - 350 million quid a week just to have no customs charges. If we do see customs charges and we raise them back, then UK industry just supplies the UK more, some sales in the EU will still happen, and more with the rest of the world. The EU will lose more sales and revenue because we import more.The saved 250 million and the import duties can be used to support UK SME companies instead of allowing 'free trade' for bogus multinational tax fiddling corps.

The nationalisation of banks was done for their benefit not ours. The gov could run a basic retail banking facility for the public. Let's not forget that 'the city' got Mandelslime to block the Post Office from just this option. There is nothing to stop almost total seperation of gambling and retail banking. The way it was before the repeal of Glass Steagall and the London Corp 'big bang'.

[johnhemming2]

I was referring to the archdruid report.

In terms of the money we actually pay to the EU (because we get a rebate and don't pay the full £250) minus that which we get back. I did some analysis on my blog
http://johnhemming.blogspot.co.uk/2016/ ... euros.html

The big question is what the UK taxpayer gets from the passporting rules for banks and the ability to clear Euro denominated bonds. There are loads of taxes on these activities not just corporation tax. There is a good link explaining all of this.

There are also things like Vodafone's international HQ and the investment by people like SIemens (cancelled) and EDF (probably not proceeding).

All of these affect the UK tax take. The OBR will do calculations on this.

[woodburner]

EDF was probably getting the chop anyway and has nothing to do with the EU situation. Everybody will blame projects being cancelled on the referendum, when they would probably have been cancelled regardless.