EU membership referendum debate thread

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Jun 2016, 00:59

snow hope wrote:
The MSM is stoking it all up including ITV and BBC! The Tories said they had planned for all eventualities - hmmm - well they don't seem to know what to do about planning for Brexit do they?

OR do they? Maybe this was all planned and the plan was to do bugger all if Brexit was the public decision and if so wait for the public to be so scared that when they eventually are "persuaded by the public" to have a second vote, there is no doubt what the scared Leavers do and a significant proportion change their mind and we get a vote to Remain! Just my musings of what I get a gut feeling is really going on.

I don't think anybody in the tory party believed Leave would win until that period about two weeks before the vote when a couple of polls gave Leave a big lead. And even then they probably thought it was unlikely.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 29 Jun 2016, 08:50

I think the general assumption was remain would win.

Anyway there are many many real options as an alternative to the EU anyway. (In my view all worse).

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 29 Jun 2016, 10:13

Little John wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:The re-referendum petition has passed 4,000,000 votes.
Who gives a shit?

At least four million people.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 29 Jun 2016, 10:28

https://youtu.be/9r5P1z4OWWo

Not bad, American comedienne. Not bad at all.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 29 Jun 2016, 10:55

PS_RalphW wrote:
Little John wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:The re-referendum petition has passed 4,000,000 votes.
Who gives a shit?
At least four million people.

+1 (+ the 4M of course)

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 29 Jun 2016, 10:55

Interesting view on the Spanish elections that have wide reaching implications :

Failed evolution: Iglesias made the same mistake as Tspiras

Consequently, the European Left didn't dare to lead the battle against the EU neoliberal monster, starting from Brexit. So, the extreme nationalists exploited this fact to appear in the front line of another big battle.

Iglesias, Tsipras and others appear unable to understand that playing the moderate card won't lead anywhere. SYRIZA already has been transformed into a Social-Democratic entity that is forced to take further cruel measures for the majority of the Greek citizens. They don't understand that millions of disappointed voters won't buy the "revolutionary" speeches in campaigns by the Leftist leaders, when at the same time these sit on the same table to “negotiate” with EU's/eurozone's black priesthood.

Both SYRIZA and Podemos will start to decline into a stagnating situation by the fact that they are unable to attract millions of disappointed voters while try to achieve the impossible: create a humanitarian Europe through “negotiations” with the representatives of bankers and lobbyists.

The only way to escape from this situation is to declare, together with the European Left, a real war on these bankers and lobbyists, throwing out of the game the dangerous nationalists. Otherwise, the Left will be vanished again, and the nightmare of the Far-Right will start dominating Europe.

The message is pretty clear
The nettle the Social Democratic parties throughout Europe have to grasp is that reformation within the European Union is a non-starter.
You have to come up with a completely new plan - including the UK following Brexit

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 29 Jun 2016, 10:56

emordnilap wrote:https://youtu.be/9r5P1z4OWWo

Not bad, American comedienne. Not bad at all.

Thanks for that.

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 29 Jun 2016, 11:32

snow hope wrote:I am sick of the scare-mongering going on by the media and eagerly egged on by the politicians and establishment here and abroad.

The FTSE100 climbed back up another 2.6% today and is at 6140, the level it was at for most of May and higher than the third week of June - ie. nothing at all out of the ordinary from the markets perspective.

So the £ is down against the USD by 10 cents from where it was on the 14th June - ie down about 9%. And the Euro is down about 6 cent from the 14th June at € 1.20 - again no more than would be expected really.

A somewhat superficial way of looking at things, Snow. You would expect of a lot of market volatility at the moment - the indexes going up and down like a pair of whore's draws!

It's the longer term trends you should be more concerned about. Markets like speculation but they hate uncertainty - we are in uncertain times at the moment.

The logical option would be to raise rates as Sterling is weakening - however it would appear that the failed option of cutting rates and firing up the printing presses again.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 29 Jun 2016, 13:16

PS_RalphW wrote:
Little John wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:The re-referendum petition has passed 4,000,000 votes.
Who gives a shit?
At least four million people.

So 4 million spoilt brats who have voted and didn't get their way want to vote again and again until they get their own way! Sounds like the way the EU works to me so it's a good job we're out.

Regarding our terms of exit and future trading, our negotiators should be looking for the same deal that the US and Canada have negotiated with the CETA and TTIP treaties to give them free access without freedom of movement and without any contribution to the EU budget. Sans ISDS of course.

Perhaps Norway and Switzerland should be asking for the same.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 29 Jun 2016, 13:24

kenneal - lagger wrote:our negotiators should be looking for the same deal ...

You need to look at the balance of power in this.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 29 Jun 2016, 13:59

Perhaps we should get together with Norway and Switzerland and go for the same deal. If we spin out the negotiations and be awkward enough we could do serious damage to the EU and they know it which is why there is a clamour for a quick result.

I hope we get some serious negotiators rather than diplomats and make the fascist buggers sweat a bit.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 29 Jun 2016, 14:29

kenneal - lagger wrote:Perhaps we should get together with Norway and Switzerland and go for the same deal. If we spin out the negotiations and be awkward enough we could do serious damage to the EU and they know it which is why there is a clamour for a quick result.

I hope we get some serious negotiators rather than diplomats and make the fascist buggers sweat a bit.

Fascist buggers, Ken? You might like to look a little closer to home before making those sort of pronouncements.

The swingeing austerity budgets introduced by the incumbent shower of right-wing ideologists has been turning the day-to-day lives of many disadvantaged folk in this country upside-down for the past six years.

Instead of taking the banksters and corporations to task for trashing our economy, they have sought to lay the blame squarely at the feet of those least able to defend themselves. That's what I call fascism.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 29 Jun 2016, 14:55

The Telegraph today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... s-and-for/

......... You only need to spend a few minutes in the company of Boris and a voter to understand his natural abilities, and the chance he presents to help restore the image of politicians with a cynical public.

He can unite our country. Boris is not just a personality who people like, but a real leader. Voters are not easily fooled; they do not want someone who can make them laugh, but a leader who will deliver for them and their families.

"That's all very well, but I don't mind telling you - I'm bricking it".

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 29 Jun 2016, 15:15

PS_RalphW wrote:
Little John wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:The re-referendum petition has passed 4,000,000 votes.
Who gives a shit?
At least four million people.

Well, since they are 4 million of the 16 odd million who voted for the losing side of this referendum, why do the rest of us need to give a shit about that

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 29 Jun 2016, 15:20

raspberry-blower wrote:Interesting view on the Spanish elections that have wide reaching implications :

Failed evolution: Iglesias made the same mistake as Tspiras

Consequently, the European Left didn't dare to lead the battle against the EU neoliberal monster, starting from Brexit. So, the extreme nationalists exploited this fact to appear in the front line of another big battle.

Iglesias, Tsipras and others appear unable to understand that playing the moderate card won't lead anywhere. SYRIZA already has been transformed into a Social-Democratic entity that is forced to take further cruel measures for the majority of the Greek citizens. They don't understand that millions of disappointed voters won't buy the "revolutionary" speeches in campaigns by the Leftist leaders, when at the same time these sit on the same table to “negotiate” with EU's/eurozone's black priesthood.

Both SYRIZA and Podemos will start to decline into a stagnating situation by the fact that they are unable to attract millions of disappointed voters while try to achieve the impossible: create a humanitarian Europe through “negotiations” with the representatives of bankers and lobbyists.

The only way to escape from this situation is to declare, together with the European Left, a real war on these bankers and lobbyists, throwing out of the game the dangerous nationalists. Otherwise, the Left will be vanished again, and the nightmare of the Far-Right will start dominating Europe.
The message is pretty clear
The nettle the Social Democratic parties throughout Europe have to grasp is that reformation within the European Union is a non-starter.
You have to come up with a completely new plan - including the UK following Brexit

This is bang on RB. And it is deeply depressing. It seems the Left, when push has come to shove across Europe, has folded time and again when it mattered most. And so the far right is able to take up the banner of "the people".