EU membership referendum debate thread

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 26 Jun 2016, 21:24

I think we should pre-empt the Scots and push for a referendum for them to leave what is left of the UK.

Snail · Post by **Snail** » 26 Jun 2016, 21:44

that wouldn't solve any of the issues or concerns expressed in this thread.

I suggest everybody take a chill pill and

. its only been a few days.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 26 Jun 2016, 21:50

johnhemming2 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Apart from anything else, if people think there is going to be a second referendum after some negotiation, it becomes a completely different negotiation.
There is, of course, the question as to what the alternative is. I personally think the EEA option which removes our power, but also only gets rid of the CFP and the CAP is probably from most people's point of view worse than the current arrangement.

The key question, if you boil off all the crap, is tradeoff between freedom of movement and access to the single market. The referendum result was the British people saying "No more freedom of movement." But they were told we would get at least some access to the single market anyway.

I think it is possible we could pay a fee to get access to the single market without freedom of movement, but whether it would be worth it is beyond my pay grade to say.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 26 Jun 2016, 21:58

UndercoverElephant wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Apart from anything else, if people think there is going to be a second referendum after some negotiation, it becomes a completely different negotiation.
There is, of course, the question as to what the alternative is. I personally think the EEA option which removes our power, but also only gets rid of the CFP and the CAP is probably from most people's point of view worse than the current arrangement.
The key question, if you boil off all the crap, is tradeoff between freedom of movement and access to the single market. The referendum result was the British people saying "No more freedom of movement." But they were told we would get at least some access to the single market anyway.

I think it is possible we could pay a fee to get access to the single market without freedom of movement, but whether it would be worth it is beyond my pay grade to say.

I think the other 27 member states might have something to say about that particular Plan B.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:07

Technically one of the big issues is in work benefits. Without those people would not migrate. Other countries have benefit systems which are more contributions orientated and I don't know whether they go the same way with in work benefits.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:11

This article cannot be all true, but it is quite funny
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu

Here a cluster-F--k, there a cluster-F--k, everywhere a cluster-F--k. The rest of the EU must be quite enjoying this. Even if we aren’t.

Interestingly the guardian does not use ****s, it is also interesting that the data on this board is stored unbowdlerised.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:29

johnhemming2 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:What index are you suggesting?
The DOW in the US or the FTSE in London
I have the dow at 17,400.75 at close of play on Friday. You are saying you are willing to bet USD 20 that it will close on Monday below 13965.
6138.69 was the FTSE100 close. You are saying that will be below: 5831.755.

I am happy to take on either or both bets. I think the markets had already priced in risk anyway.

Your math is off on the DOW . 17,400.75 *.95=16530.75
FTSE close below 5831.75 is correct

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:33

Your on for the FTSE at or below 5831.755 for $20.00 US

Post by **clv101** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:37

johnhemming2 wrote:This article cannot be all true, but it is quite funny
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu

It certainly has been a crazy Sunday... Osborne IS going to break cover first thing tomorrow. I guess this is what Joseph Tainter’s "collapse of complex societies" looks like.

Post by **clv101** » 26 Jun 2016, 22:46

Boris has written something:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... --and-alw/

It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so.

...

I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market.

...

The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal.

...

Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry.

Odd that this appears (for a fee?) in the newspaper, and isn't a speech or press release from Vote Leave.

So it's all going to be okay, we can still travel as much as we like, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market but we'll also have a points-based immigration policy. Good luck with all that!

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 26 Jun 2016, 23:07

We keep all the good bits and lose all the bad bits. Yes Eureka I could vote for that.

He is a good negotiator having agreement that UK citizens have freedom off movement, but no-one else has the freedom to move to the UK

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 26 Jun 2016, 23:08

All that depends on the other 27 countries accepting those conditions. They will not. Some might, but not all.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 26 Jun 2016, 23:09

None will.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 26 Jun 2016, 23:11

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -and-wales

Racist incidents feared to be linked to Brexit result

..... In Gloucester, Max Fras said he was in a Tesco supermarket on Friday night with his young son when a white man became agitated in the queue for the checkout and began yelling: “This is England now, foreigners have 48 hours to F--k right off. Who is foreign here? Anyone foreign?”

Fras said the man began quizzing people in the queue about where they were from. “He pointed at another gentleman in front of him and said: ‘Where are you from, are you Spanish? Are you Italian? Are you Romanian?’ And he said ‘No, I’m English’,” said Fras.

Fras, a Polish consultant in European educational projects who lives in London, said he was concerned about what incidents like this might mean for those like him who have moved from the EU to Britain.

Is this the (Dis)united Kingdom that many of these illiterate low-life 'Brexiteers' were hoping for?

I'm ashamed to be English.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 26 Jun 2016, 23:31

clv101 wrote:
So it's all going to be okay, we can still travel as much as we like, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market but we'll also have a points-based immigration policy. Good luck with all that!

Should be interesting to see what Messrs Juncker and Tusk have to say about that.