EU membership referendum debate thread

[3rdRock]

You are on the wrong site buddy. Please go to the many conspiracy sites out and carry on there......

The far right are going nowhere. The centre right, hopefully, are on the move. ....at least I hope so

Suggest you take a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org

/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

That is just a point of view 3rdRock. Who is to say they'll get anywhere?

I genuinely feel rather sorry for you. From your current and past comments, I've come to realise that it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. You'll never understand who is REALLY damaging our society.

You're being mugged every day of your life by a Westminster shill carrying a large red pencil and you refuse to see it.

You're right about one thing though - it is boring around here. TTFN!

[BritDownUnder]

Yes, was thinking the same thing recently.

Maybe Britain can lead a alt-EU which will welcome the escaping nation-states trapped within the EU in the coming years.

Maybe Germany will one day bail on the failing EU and join us.

Exciting times.

I think we could peel off the Dutch and Danes away from the EU to a North Sea Free Trade Area. Here's my thoughts on where the UK should go now.

The UK can look to Australia as an example to see where to go regarding Trade and Visas and immigration.

Voting

Only British citizens get the right to vote. No Irish or Commonwealth should have the right to vote. In Australia only Australian citizens can vote. To allow foreigners to vote in Australia is regarded by most people here as being nuts.

Visas

The UK should have a policy of requiring all foreigners either travelling (for business and pleasure) there or residing there have a visa. Visa pricing should be sufficiently high to be a suitable deterrent. The CTA with the Republic of Ireland should go and Irish currently residing in the UK should get permanent Residence Visas like happens in Australia for all foreigners. Everyone going to Australia needs a visa, no matter what. Its not hard to do.

Scotland

The Scots must have a referendum and see how they go with the EU. I think they will either get eaten alive in the negotiations and end up paying a hefty fee to join and spend and borrow like troopers on a 3 day leave pass. Or they can join a Free Trade agreement with the rump UK but have not right to free travel and residence.

Northern Ireland and Eire

I think Northern Ireland is untenable in the UK and they should probably be left to go their own way. The Catholic west of the province seemed to vote for Remain and the Protestant east for Leave.
The Common Travel Area should be abolished and Irish in the UK should need visas.

The Rest of the EU

Make sure on no freedom of trade or movement in any exit agreement. Unlike the Swiss or Norwegians we have no trade surplus with the EU and it will probably only get worse. Ensure that EU citizens currently residing are 'persuaded' by financial or legal means to quit or get a Permanent Residence Visa (make this process time consuming and costly). I think it will be very difficult to get rid of Eastern Europeans and especially Roma but I think that stopping all forms of benefits and work opportunities will get rid of most.

British Citizenship

Make Dual Citizenship very difficult and costly. I am more than happy to lose my UK citizenship - my UK passport is currently expired and I would only renew it to take care of legal matters after my parents expire.

Trade Agreements

Don't seek out FTAs willy nilly - they usually have nasty investment rules attached to them. Instead use WTO rules.

International Organisations

Separate referenda should be held each on withdrawal from the UN, Refugee Charter and European Court of Human rights. Any supranational organisation which can overrule UK Parliamentary Laws should, in my opinion, should be withdrawn from.


Times will no doubt be tough and real austerity will be upon the UK. Personally I would slash benefits and stop them once families have more than two children. Only citizens should get any benefit at all and legal non-citizens should pay all taxes.
A national ID should be introduced and if companies are found to be employing illegal workers they should be dealt with mercilessly with the directors facing prison terms or forfeiture of ownership of the company.

[UndercoverElephant]

The only way there could be a second referendum is if the brexit campaign itself called for one. (or sufficient elements of it). It is no good remainers complaining about the result and calling for another go. The leave campaign won fair and square (in the sense that there was not massive electoral fraud - which does happen from time to time). The fact that people believed their lies is part of the nature of politics.

I think there are other situations. For example, if the EU makes a significant offer on freedom of movement and a majority of MPs back a second referendum on the new offer. Imagine they just offer the UK an opt out of freedom of movement. I suspect that would be enough to turn the result from leave to remain.

[AutomaticEarth]

This thread is hilarious. I wish I could fast forward five years and see how it ends.

Agree UE. You could argue it needs to be put to bed.

[woodburner]

This thread is hilarious. I wish I could fast forward five years and see how it ends.

Agree UE. You could argue it needs to be put to bed.

Yep. Referendum is finished, need to move on.

[clv101]

Yep. Referendum is finished, need to move on.

There is no point in the Remain side trying to get out of this. If Brexit does not actually happen, the result will be a massive surge in support for UKIP at the next election.

Absolutely, Brexit is going to happen. But, and this is the important bit - there are many flavours of Brexit. We don't actually know what 'Brexit' is do we?

We'll leave the EU - in a few years (hell, EU may even collapse before we get to the end of Article 50's two years!). But we'll clearly have some formal agreements with what's left of the EU, or even smaller groupings of countries. I think a key point is that what is commonly understood as Brexit simply hasn't been technically defined, let alone negotiated.

A lot of what many Leave voters expect to happen, may well not happen. There's a good chance that the eventual outcome in 2020 won't satisfy either the average Remain or Leave voter!

[AutomaticEarth]

Suggest you take a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org

/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

That is just a point of view 3rdRock. Who is to say they'll get anywhere?

I genuinely feel rather sorry for you. From your current and past comments, I've come to realise that it's like trying to explain colour to a blind man. You'll never understand who is REALLY damaging our society.

You're being mugged every day of your life by a Westminster shill carrying a large red pencil and you refuse to see it.

You're right about one thing though - it is boring around here. TTFN!

3rdRock, I see what you are saying but it's a lot more complex that what you think, and that is part of the problem. Feel free to start another thread, don't get abusive, and let's have a proper discussion. It's up to you.

[johnhemming2]

The far right almost beat the greens in Austria.

[UndercoverElephant]

Yep. Referendum is finished, need to move on.

There is no point in the Remain side trying to get out of this. If Brexit does not actually happen, the result will be a massive surge in support for UKIP at the next election.

Absolutely, Brexit is going to happen. But, and this is the important bit - there are many flavours of Brexit. We don't actually know what 'Brexit' is do we?

We'll leave the EU - in a few years (hell, EU may even collapse before we get to the end of Article 50's two years!). But we'll clearly have some formal agreements with what's left of the EU, or even smaller groupings of countries. I think a key point is that what is commonly understood as Brexit simply hasn't been technically defined, let alone negotiated.

A lot of what many Leave voters expect to happen, may well not happen. There's a good chance that the eventual outcome in 2020 won't satisfy either the average Remain or Leave voter!

I basically agree with this. There are plenty of unknowns. These include what happens within the EU. The Eurocrats who created the EU monster, and who have been so reluctant to make real concessions or implement major reform, are now saying how they have to make the remaining 27-state block more unified. But there is growing discontent in Holland, Denmark, France and even Germany, not to mention places like Greece and Spain who have different reasons for disliking the EU. Two years is a long time. We have the SNP talking all sorts of nonsense about "preserving EU status for Scotland" and "triggering a second referendum", even though they haven't sorted out their currency problem and any second referendum in Scotland would have to be held in the absence of any knowledge of what staying in the UK would mean, because the Brexit negotiations will be unfinished. And at the same time we may have other north-western European nations heading for the exit door while the rest of the EU tries to figure out what steps are necessary to prevent the whole edifice from collapsing.

All of which adds up to a huge level of uncertaintly all round. The only thing we can be sure of is that European BAU is not going to happen. Very major change is coming.

[clv101]

The only thing we can be sure of is that European BAU is not going to happen. Very major change is coming.

Yeah, and we on PowerSwitch, basically knew European BAU wasn't going to happen. What we didn't know was just what the failure mode would be or the timing.

Historian's may end up chalking the breakup of the EU down to the Brexit vote, but a more complete analysis might suggest the whole house of cards was coming down anyway and the actual trigger could have any of a dozen different things over the coming decade.

[Little John]

The only way there could be a second referendum is if the brexit campaign itself called for one. (or sufficient elements of it). It is no good remainers complaining about the result and calling for another go. The leave campaign won fair and square (in the sense that there was not massive electoral fraud - which does happen from time to time). The fact that people believed their lies is part of the nature of politics.

I think there are other situations. For example, if the EU makes a significant offer on freedom of movement and a majority of MPs back a second referendum on the new offer. Imagine they just offer the UK an opt out of freedom of movement. I suspect that would be enough to turn the result from leave to remain.

I agree, if the migration question was fully nailed down, I dare say the government could persuade the people of a second referendum. In this single regard, Merkel has a lot to answer for. Quite probably the destruction of the EU.

Though, I would not be personally persuaded without significant reform to the power structures of the EU. In other words, the EU parliament should have absolute supremacy in terms of making and repealing laws. Thus, when we voted for MEPs, we could know that they wielded real power on our behalf. However, I cannot see such reforms ever happening.

[johnhemming2]

I still think remaining as members of the EEA is the most likely solution. There will have to be some negotiation on the CFP although the CAP can disappear as far as the UK is concerned.

[raspberry-blower]

Another Angry Voce: The Second Referendum Petition is Daft

The proposal this petition outlines would have precisely the same effect. The setting of an arbitrary 75% turnout threshold means that the whole thing could just be derailed if Remainers engaged in mass abstention. In fact, every Remainer who actually voted for Remain under such a system would actually be making Brexit more likely by doing so!

I do find this 2nd referendum stuff highly dispiriting, embarrassing imbecilic and infantile. And this is coming from someone who currently works in the waste industry and whose instincts are admittedly pro European - however I do harbour severe reservations about the hierarchical structure of the EU. Particularly after the abysmal way they treated Greece.

There are far better options that these click petitionists should be directing their energy at. Such as calling for an immediate general election. With all sides coming out with how they would deal with Brussels on the "divorce" from the EU - if they want a second referendum it should be on these proposals.

Oh BTW can we have a referendum on leaving that hopelessly outdated and totally unnecessary organisation called NATO?

[johnhemming2]

Particularly after the abysmal way they treated Greece.

The Greeks Democratically Decided that they wanted the Germans (and Finns etc) to give them a lot of money. The politicians in Germany (and Finland etc) took the view of their electors that they didn't want to do this unless the Greeks made changes to their financial policies.

Personally I don't think that is either unreasonable or undemocratic.

[UndercoverElephant]

The truth is that the Greek situation just exposes why the EU doesn't really work. Specifically, why the single currency was a bad idea in the absence of full political and fiscal union. It is not just that the Greeks are corrupt or lazy. They are using a currency that is designed to work best for the Germans, not the Greeks.