EU membership referendum debate thread

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 24 Jun 2016, 21:21

French and Dutch opposition parties now talking of referendums for EU exit

Read more..........

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2016, 23:11

woodburner wrote:French and Dutch opposition parties now talking of referendums for EU exit

Read more..........

I doubt it is going to happen in France any time soon, but in Holland it seems like a very real possibility all of a sudden.

Geert Wilders, the head of the Dutch PVV party, said on Friday that the citizens of his country "would like to be in charge again of their own budget, their national borders and their immigration policy".

"I congratulate the British people for beating the political elite in both London and Brussels and I think we can do the same," Wilders told the Reuters news agency. "We should have a referendum about a 'Nexit' as soon as possible."

His party is leading opinion polls in the Netherlands - one of the six founder nations of what has become the EU.

If France leaves then the EU is toast. Fin.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Jun 2016, 23:50

Is it possible that a disintegrating EU could lead to a new north-west European bloc?

Let's say Holland holds a referendum, and leaves, and France elects a far-right anti-EU government. It seems to me that the balance of power in north-west Europe would then have shifted, with Germany left alone trying to unite the whole of Europe, while the UK, Scandinavia, Holland and France would all be heading out of the EU and potentially forming a new trading bloc, rather like the old EEC. Sort of the original version of the EU reborn, but without Germany....

On the other hand, it might be the case that before this sort of scenario unfolds, the EU implements some sort of major reform to stop it from happening (maybe including changes in freedom of movement rules).

BritDownUnder · Post by **BritDownUnder** » 25 Jun 2016, 01:24

UndercoverElephant wrote:Is it possible that a disintegrating EU could lead to a new north-west European bloc?

Let's say Holland holds a referendum, and leaves, and France elects a far-right anti-EU government. It seems to me that the balance of power in north-west Europe would then have shifted, with Germany left alone trying to unite the whole of Europe, while the UK, Scandinavia, Holland and France would all be heading out of the EU and potentially forming a new trading bloc, rather like the old EEC. Sort of the original version of the EU reborn, but without Germany....

On the other hand, it might be the case that before this sort of scenario unfolds, the EU implements some sort of major reform to stop it from happening (maybe including changes in freedom of movement rules).

You took the words right out of my mouth but keep France out of any new arrangement at all costs, possibly Belgium too. My God it has taken 43 years to get rid of them and you want them back!

I can see the UK (with or without Scotland/NI), Iceland, Denmark, Norway and possibly Netherlands forming a North Sea Free Trade Area. Maybe even share electrical power too. Absolutely no freedom of movement though.

I am thinking of doing a big post on the Brexit when I finish work tonight.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 25 Jun 2016, 10:18

Yes, was thinking the same thing recently.

Maybe Britain can lead a alt-EU which will welcome the escaping nation-states trapped within the EU in the coming years.

Maybe Germany will one day bail on the failing EU and join us.

Exciting times.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 25 Jun 2016, 15:43

Lord Beria3 wrote:Yes, was thinking the same thing recently.

Maybe Britain can lead a alt-EU which will welcome the escaping nation-states trapped within the EU in the coming years.

Maybe Germany will one day bail on the failing EU and join us.

Exciting times.

Perhaps you Brits will come up with a new set of rules and trade agreements that are so agreeable compared to present EU practice that there will be be a clamor for joining the (UK community) to give it a name?
At the very least it would inspire the EU to compete with you on trade rules and such which would pry them out of their now overly bureaucratic ways.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 25 Jun 2016, 16:40

vtsnowedin wrote: compete with you on trade rules and such which would pry them out of their now overly bureaucratic ways.

Such bureaucratic ways as working to reduce energy usage and waste and trying to keep working conditions at a reasonable level.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 25 Jun 2016, 17:24

johnhemming2 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: compete with you on trade rules and such which would pry them out of their now overly bureaucratic ways.
Such bureaucratic ways as working to reduce energy usage and waste and trying to keep working conditions at a reasonable level.

What is a good regulation and what is unnecessary are subjects for debate, but those debates should be conducted by elected officials and in public.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 25 Jun 2016, 17:25

Government petition site has a petition to re-run the referendum on the (spurious) grounds that the result was too narrow to be decisive.

It has 1.85 Million signatures in just 1 day - more than double previous record and at one point the site crashed due to demand.

48% of the population are really pissed off.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 25 Jun 2016, 17:51

That is not true. Please stop confusing the number of voters with the total electorate. The number of possibly pissed off people is 72.2% of 48.1% which is 34.7%.

This is why Ms Sturgeon is up the creek with no paddle. Her "emphatic" is really 67.2% of 62% which is 41%. Considerably less than half. She, as is usual with politicians, is being disingenuous and divisive.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 25 Jun 2016, 17:58

PS_RalphW wrote:Government petition site has a petition to re-run the referendum on the (spurious) grounds that the result was too narrow to be decisive.

It has 1.85 Million signatures in just 1 day - more than double previous record and at one point the site crashed due to demand.

48% of the population are really pissed off.

In May, Nigel Farage, reptile that he is, insisted that if the result favoured remaining in the EU by a 52 to 48% margin, he would consider it to be 'unfinished business' and demand a second referendum.

I wonder if he still feels the same?

Wake up! What are you waiting for? Sign the petition. Now!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Post by **clv101** » 25 Jun 2016, 18:49

woodburner wrote:That is not true. Please stop confusing the number of voters with the total electorate. The number of possibly pissed off people is 72.2% of 48.1% which is 34.7%.

And, there'll be lots of people who didn't register to vote.
And, there're lot of people here not eligible to vote who are also aloud to be pissed off (under 18s, non-British citizens etc...)

Post by **clv101** » 25 Jun 2016, 18:55

It is an odd situation we find ourselves in. The vast majority of 'the establishment', the power, the money, the corporations etc. are unhappy with the result. I'm not even sure Boris and Gove are that happy with the result - doubt they expected to win, they probably just saw it as a vehicle to increase their stature.

This article from a foreign policy guy at the LSE raises some interesting questions:
The Brexit debate is far from over: there will have to be a further vote
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/ ... ther-vote/

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 25 Jun 2016, 19:09

3rdRock wrote:
PS_RalphW wrote:Government petition site has a petition to re-run the referendum on the (spurious) grounds that the result was too narrow to be decisive.

It has 1.85 Million signatures in just 1 day - more than double previous record and at one point the site crashed due to demand.

48% of the population are really pissed off.
In May, Nigel Farage, reptile that he is, insisted that if the result favoured remaining in the EU by a 52 to 48% margin, he would consider it to be 'unfinished business' and demand a second referendum.

I wonder if he still feels the same?

Wake up! What are you waiting for? Sign the petition. Now!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Nah. The petition is rubbish. Let's start a new petition to vote Scotland out of the UK. As for Farage he's been treated quite badly. I think he should have a cabinet position.

Post by **clv101** » 25 Jun 2016, 19:16

3rdRock wrote:Wake up! What are you waiting for? Sign the petition. Now!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

2330 per minute over the last 5 minutes, it'll be over 2.5 million by the end of today.