EU membership referendum debate thread

[mikepepler]

There's a been a couple of interesting articles on 'working class' opinions about the EU, and I've been surprised to see them in the Guardian!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum

[UndercoverElephant]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123450

Oh boy. This just appeared in my facebook feed.

Cancel the planned referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU.

According to the BBC (as at the 26th February 2016) 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the

Constituting more than 68% of the votes in the House of Commons, this represents a rare and overwhelming cross-party Parliamentary majority. If it is the settled will of such a large majority in the House of Commons, Parliament should now rise to the occasion and assert the very sovereignty Brexit campaigners claim it has lost. Parliament should ratify the agreement reached by the Government with the European Union and confirm Britain’s membership of the European Union on that basis.

I mean, where do you start responding to this?

Start a petition to cancel a referendum because you think your side is going to lose? "Desperate" doesn't do it justice.

[UndercoverElephant]

There's a been a couple of interesting articles on 'working class' opinions about the EU, and I've been surprised to see them in the Guardian!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... referendum

Wow! Somebody finally tells it how it is in The Guardian.

[kenneal - lagger]

I was so impressed that I signed up as a supporter!

I had been meaning to for a long time but this was the straw which .... well you know what I mean!

[kenneal - lagger]

...

According to the BBC (as at the 26th February 2016) 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the .........

So that's how many MPs are looking for well paid jobs on the gravy train in the corporations or the EU when they get chucked out of Parliament.

[fuzzy]

Don't forget an MP is not paid by performance. The more is decided by Europe, the less they have to do.

[woodburner]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123450

Oh boy. This just appeared in my facebook feed.

Cancel the planned referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU.

According to the BBC (as at the 26th February 2016) 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the

Constituting more than 68% of the votes in the House of Commons, this represents a rare and overwhelming cross-party Parliamentary majority. If it is the settled will of such a large majority in the House of Commons, Parliament should now rise to the occasion and assert the very sovereignty Brexit campaigners claim it has lost. Parliament should ratify the agreement reached by the Government with the European Union and confirm Britain’s membership of the European Union on that basis.

I mean, where do you start responding to this?

Start a petition to cancel a referendum because you think your side is going to lose? "Desperate" doesn't do it justice.

Alternatively you could start a losers campaign:

Dear Avaazers in and around London,

Only light can sweep away the darkness, only love can heal hate. As we mourn for and honour Jo Cox, we also have to go on -- to carry forward the banner of love and hope for a better world that she carried so gracefully. To unite, as her husband Brendan said, “to fight against the hatred that killed her.”

And to do just that, on Sunday hundreds will be kissing against Brexit -- attempting to break a Guinness World Record for the largest kiss! The kissing chain will be continued in Rome, Paris and Berlin, sending a powerful message that we're taking back our politics from fear and lies with beautiful unity and humanity. And it starts in London.

RSVP below, and bring everyone you love -- text them, call them, share the event on Facebook. Let’s pack the square and show the world the power of love:
When: June 19th, 12 noon
Where: Parliament Square
What: The Kissing World Record
Click here to RSVP
See you there.

Kisses and love,

Christoph, Fatima, Antonia, Luca, Marie, Patricia and the entire Avaaz team

I had thought Avaaz was OK, but I am beginning to wonder. Their anti-hate stance is ok, but if they are prepared to get on the anti-Brexit bandwagon they are straying into risky territory.

The Guardian summed up the hate problem:

Cox’s death is tragic and terrible. It’s also a reminder that Trump’s response of hate-filled political scapegoating and stoking of fear – enabled by a toxic political rhetoric and spread by social media and the web – is more than exactly the wrong response: it’s at the heart of the violence.

[Little John]

T he witness at the scene of the murder of Jo Cox flatly denies hearing the attacker shout "Britain First" nor did he fight the attacker, as is widely reported. Yet, despite his public proclamation of this, the bulk of the MSM is flatly refusing (or burying it under a mountain of other "news") to cover this. As usual, we are being fed lies from the MSM.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/jo-cox-witness-say ... rst-132375



If I were feeling particularly paranoid, I might be tempted to say it would not surprise me in the least if the attacker has an "accident" over the next few days while in police custody.

Additionally, I am also seeing various MSM pieces this morning on how anyone stating the obvious fact of this man's mental health problems is somehow to stigmatise mental health issues.

No-one is demonising mental health issues. On the other hand, these MSM outlets and various other Remain camp shills like them, indirectly or directly in the service of the corporate capitalist machine, ARE seeking to use this awful event to demonise and stigmatise vast portions of the working class of this country by insinuating anyone on the LEAVE side of this referendum is allied to far right extremism. When all of this is over and the people in these organisations are left only with looking at themselves in the mirror every day for the rest of their lives, I hope they will have enough humanity in them to be able to feel shame at what they and their organisations have engaged in over the last few days.

Shame on them all

[woodburner]

Yet another reason why the likes of campaigning politicians should face legal sanctions if they run their normal hate ridden tactics. This includes Cameron and most others involved in prime minister's questions, where the approach is to ridicule the other side(s), instead of answering the question. And Trump for his continual lies and half truths, or even truths if presented in a way likely to incite violence. They will argue that they did nothing wrong, may be literally correct, but they stir up other people, some of whom are a bit unhinged, and there are plenty of them.

[johnhemming2]

So that's how many MPs are looking for well paid jobs on the gravy train in the corporations or the EU when they get chucked out of Parliament.

I have never had any money from the EU.

It could, however, simply be that most MPs understand that we are likely to have to follow many of the rules of the regional trade agreement (the EU) and it would be better to be part of setting the rules than not.

[Lord Beria3]

Anyway, back to the referendum debate.

Simon Jenkins has written a interesting article on why he backs Remain.

I agree with many of his points and can understand the logic that Britain stay in the EU to try and save the organisation from disintegration - or at least try and make it as orderly as possible.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... votes-stay

The oligarchs of Brussels created this backlash, and they must find a new framework for Europe’s divergent national identities, many of them desperately in need of the safety valve of a floating exchange rate. In 1918, 1945 and 1989 autonomous states were the building blocks of a new European democracy. Those blocks must be reinforced, not weakened.

As for Britain, we are where we are. All of Europe is now challenged as never since the end of the cold war, by persistent recession, external immigration and Russian revanchism. These may be easy to exaggerate, but they are real. Brexit will not make them go away, even from Britain’s shores. Britain is part of the political chemistry that continues, however tenuously, to enable Europe to act in concert.

Were economics overwhelmingly on the side of Brexit, I would vote for it. I would advocate that Britain work for Europe’s salvation from outside, perhaps in league with other non-eurozone countries that might take the same path. Since I find the economics neutral, the politics comes to the fore.

Britain is not a big player in the EU game. It has always been a disgruntled bystander. But for Britain to trigger not a “dis-integration” but a dismantling of what is already a tottering congeries of states is most dangerous. It would leave Germany effectively alone at the head of Europe, alternately hesitant and bullying. That has to be a bad idea – as sensible Germans will attest.

This is not the equivalent of 1914 or 1939. It is closer to 1815 and Waterloo. A Britain that votes to stay with the EU would be able, for a crucial while, to wield serious clout, in Europe’s interest and its own. At the start of this campaign I wanted to leave, renegotiate and stay. Now I am for stay, lobby and see what happens next. Whatever anyone says, there is always another time.

Personally, I think that our influence in Europe is over-stated (look at Cameron's pathetic renegotiation) and ultimately we will have greater impact by voting Brexit and hopefully forcing the EU elites to fundamentally reform and return powers to the nation-states.

If they carry on "more Europe", expect to see further countries try and leave and the whole Project will fail. And it will be their fault.

[Lord Beria3]

Regarding the outcome of the referendum, I find it astonishing that some people are so certain of the outcome, mainly on the Remain side.

To me it looks very close and could go either way.

[johnhemming2]

To me it looks very close and could go either way.

I can agree with you on this one point.

[Lord Beria3]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /86031038/

Stephan Shakespeare, the founder and chief executive British polling firm YouGov, told USA TODAY he did not think Cox's murder would lead to a shift in attitudes toward the vote, "but the nature of the campaigning will be changed and that probably will have an impact" on opinion.

"What tends to happen when you have an event of this kind is that the voices of those who feel they are affected by something become quieter. They don't change their minds."

Doesn't appear to be a particularly robust poll but it suggests that the tragic killing will not materially impact peoples decision on what to vote for in the EU referendum. Lets see from the yougov and other respected polling organisations this weekend.

My hunch is that there will not be a big swing towards Remain. However the remaining course of the debate will be very different in tone (no bad thing in my opinion) from before.

[Lord Beria3]

http://www.qriously.com/blog/jo-cox-mur ... eferendum/

Overall, it seems clear that Jo Cox’s murder is unlikely to have a significant impact on individual voters.

However, if anything, Jo Cox’s death might weaken the support for Remain. Remain support dropped from 40% of likely voters (Mon-Thurs) to only 32% on Friday, with undecided likely voters increasing by the same amount. This indicates that previously-secure Remain voters (voters who indicated they were likely to vote and likely to back Remain) have wavered in their support. They state they are still likely to vote, but are no longer sure who to support. This represents a strong opportunity for the Leave campaign, and may be the final nail in the coffin for Remain.

However, referendums typically have a late swing to the status quo (Remain in this case), and this effect will likely also take place here. These results are just a snapshot of how people indicate they will vote at this point in time, and, of course, many events could take place over the next week which could change the outcome.

However, the momentum has never been higher for Vote Leave, and shows no signs of slowing.

Interesting conclusion! I suspect that that by the end of the weekend, most voters will have "moved on" from the killing by a deranged and mentally ill individual.

Whether it strengthens the Leave camp remains to be seen.