EU membership referendum debate thread

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jun 2016, 22:05

Much of the Greek debt was private...until it wasn't

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Jun 2016, 22:23

johnhemming2 wrote: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/u ... onal-debt/

Steady on, John, you don't want a respected source with verifiable data get in the way of some folk's prejudices.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 10 Jun 2016, 23:13

Published in 2012:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... oblem.html

Published last week, the report suggested the UK has the highest level of combined personal, national and business debt among the major economies bar Japan.
Over the past three years, the 60-page report claimed, debt has risen to more than 500 per cent of national output.

When I find the report I saw about a year ago I will post the link.

Ability to quote public debt as 81% GDP is the very reason PFI exists, to get the debt off the public register and make it look so much more reasonable.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jun 2016, 23:15

Massive swing to Leave vote in the latest poll. Clearly, the wall of MSM driven Remain propaganda, at best, isn't working and at worst it is proving counter productive

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75131.html

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jun 2016, 23:22

woodburner wrote:Published in 2012:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... oblem.html

Published last week, the report suggested the UK has the highest level of combined personal, national and business debt among the major economies bar Japan.
Over the past three years, the 60-page report claimed, debt has risen to more than 500 per cent of national output.
When I find the report I saw about a year ago I will post the link.

Ability to quote public debt as 81% GDP is the very reason PFI exists, to get the debt off the public register and make it look so much more reasonable.

Yes, indeed

http://www.independent.co.uk/money/loan ... 70214.html

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 10 Jun 2016, 23:31

This will make those think the UK is rich, feel much better. Almost no debt at all. Or have I read it wrongly?

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 11 Jun 2016, 02:43

woodburner wrote:Published in 2012:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... oblem.html

Published last week, the report suggested the UK has the highest level of combined personal, national and business debt among the major economies bar Japan.
Over the past three years, the 60-page report claimed, debt has risen to more than 500 per cent of national output.
When I find the report I saw about a year ago I will post the link.

Ability to quote public debt as 81% GDP is the very reason PFI exists, to get the debt off the public register and make it look so much more reasonable.

Also, the financial lobby are always writing Japanese debt as being irresponsible in the same way as Western countries, but it's no comparison. Japan has almost no immigration and a high proportion of old to young. It is banking it's future by making the painful expensive transition to a lower population which will improve their prospects for all citizens. Our Norman overlords spend our future by encouraging immigration in a desperate attempt to prop up the supply of workers to appease jackass employers and the housing/banking lobby.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 11 Jun 2016, 07:50

woodburner wrote:This will make those think the UK is rich, feel much better. Almost no debt at all. Or have I read it wrongly?

Wrongly. You are still muddling national debt and national wealth.

Imagine a rather small nation of 10 people, each very wealthy with a million pounds each. Tired of storing the money under their beds they decide to lend it to their government. The government borrows the hundred million.

A national debt of £100,000,000 is thus created but the nation is still just as wealthy.

The government, judging that the population is unlikely all to ask for their money back at once, spends half of it on public works for the common good.

The national debt remains the same but there are now great public works for the population to enjoy and the people have room to dust under their beds.

National debt happens for very good reasons, for the common good. It's a good thing. Get over it.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 11 Jun 2016, 08:39

biffvernon wrote:
woodburner wrote:This will make those think the UK is rich, feel much better. Almost no debt at all. Or have I read it wrongly?
Wrongly. You are still muddling national debt and national wealth.

Imagine a rather small nation of 10 people, each very wealthy with a million pounds each. Tired of storing the money under their beds they decide to lend it to their government. The government borrows the hundred million.

A national debt of £100,000,000 is thus created but the nation is still just as wealthy.

The government, judging that the population is unlikely all to ask for their money back at once, spends half of it on public works for the common good.

The national debt remains the same but there are now great public works for the population to enjoy and the people have room to dust under their beds.

National debt happens for very good reasons, for the common good. It's a good thing. Get over it.

And here you reveal just how tied is your thinking to an utterly corrupt and utterly unsustainable concept of perpetual growth. All in order to back up your equally unsustainable ideas about the carrying capacity of this country. The debt that you are so fond of is built on the back of a debt-based, interest-bearing, money-creation system that can sustain itself only so long as tomorrow's economy is perpetually bigger than today’s. But, every single person on here, including you, knows full well that is physically and, as a consequence, in the end, financially impossible.

You disgust me.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 11 Jun 2016, 08:50

Biff, are you really a troll?

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 11 Jun 2016, 08:58

biffvernon wrote:
woodburner wrote:This will make those think the UK is rich, feel much better. Almost no debt at all. Or have I read it wrongly?
Wrongly. You are still muddling national debt and national wealth.

Imagine a rather small nation of 10 people, each very wealthy with a million pounds each. Tired of storing the money under their beds they decide to lend it to their government. The government borrows the hundred million.

A national debt of £100,000,000 is thus created but the nation is still just as wealthy.

The government, judging that the population is unlikely all to ask for their money back at once, spends half of it on public works for the common good.

The national debt remains the same but there are now great public works for the population to enjoy and the people have room to dust under their beds.

National debt happens for very good reasons, for the common good. It's a good thing. Get over it.

A bizarre analogy. The gov owes the money to the people that lent it. Since it has spent it, it must borrow forever [bond issuing] to repay the original bondholders, or inflation must shrink the debt, or it must invent some more money, or steal it from other countries. If it pays interest, because no-one gets tired of storing money under their bed, then the problem worsens, while the value of the public works is crumbling away, or more likely pushing a pram.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 11 Jun 2016, 09:06

Governments do from time to time have a budget surplus and repay debt. The last time the UK did this was under the first recent Labour government.

http://researchbriefings.files.parliame ... N05745.pdf

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 11 Jun 2016, 09:20

Little John wrote:Massive swing to Leave vote in the latest poll. Clearly, the wall of MSM driven Remain propaganda, at best, isn't working and at worst it is proving counter productive

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 75131.html

Sorry, meant to say 57% polled saying they'd back Brexit, up from 49% a few days ago (according to Sky News)

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 11 Jun 2016, 09:33

fuzzy wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
woodburner wrote:This will make those think the UK is rich, feel much better. Almost no debt at all. Or have I read it wrongly?
Wrongly. You are still muddling national debt and national wealth.

Imagine a rather small nation of 10 people, each very wealthy with a million pounds each. Tired of storing the money under their beds they decide to lend it to their government. The government borrows the hundred million.

A national debt of £100,000,000 is thus created but the nation is still just as wealthy.

The government, judging that the population is unlikely all to ask for their money back at once, spends half of it on public works for the common good.

The national debt remains the same but there are now great public works for the population to enjoy and the people have room to dust under their beds.

National debt happens for very good reasons, for the common good. It's a good thing. Get over it.
A bizarre analogy. The gov owes the money to the people that lent it. Since it has spent it, it must borrow forever [bond issuing] to repay the original bondholders, or inflation must shrink the debt, or it must invent some more money, or steal it from other countries. If it pays interest, because no-one gets tired of storing money under their bed, then the problem worsens, while the value of the public works is crumbling away, or more likely pushing a pram.

No, it's not an analogy; it's a model. Notice in my model there is no mention of interest. I think that interest is unethical and in an ideal world would not happen. This is a nation where the people and the government are one; the government is made up of the people, the people are their own government. They have decided to pool their surplus money by lending it to their government (i.e. they are lending it to themselves) for the common good to build useful stuff rather than having it collecting dust under their beds. It is a communist utopia. To criticise it on the basis of the evils of bonds, interest payments and stealing from other countries is meaningless as these are just straw-man arguments.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 11 Jun 2016, 10:23

biffvernon wrote:... and in an ideal world would not happen. This is a nation where the people and the government are one; the government is made up of the people, the people are their own government...

...and the fluffy bunnies hopped and skipped among the magic flowers...

We do not live in an ideal world. What might happen in an ideal world is irrelevant, unless you are using it as an idea to throw light on what is happening in the real world. But you are not doing this. What you are doing is using ideas about an ideal world to try to defend your ideas about what should or could happen in the real world. This is either childish/naive, or dishonest.