Companies going bankrupt/into administration

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 14 Apr 2016, 07:43

Mark wrote: Very few people will live the pius and self sacrificing life required....
Even for those willing to make some changes, society is structured around carbon in so many ways.....
How many families live in x2 income households, where one person heads off in one direction to work and the other in the opposite direction ?
It's now virtually impossible to buy fruit/veg from the Supermarkets that's not pre-packed in plastic...
How many people in the West can live without their computer/phone etc.
There are 100s of examples....., it's impossible to get away from carbon in modern life....

Our local supermarkets,Co-op, Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl, all have extensive loose veg counters. My local town has two pretty traditional greengrocers and two days a week there's a street market where all the veg and fruit is loose and there are a couple of farm-shops on the way to town!

More importantly is the point often made by Kevin Anderson, one of the more outspoken climate scientists, that most people in the world don't have much climate impact - they're too poor - so we only have to radically change the behaviour of a small proportion of humanity.

woodburner · Post by **woodburner** » 14 Apr 2016, 07:58

biffvernon wrote:
More importantly is the point often made by Kevin Anderson, one of the more outspoken climate scientists, that most people in the world don't have much climate impact - they're too poor - so we only have to radically change the behaviour of a small proportion of humanity.

Individually they might not have much effect, collectively they amount to a significant amount. The ocean is full of drops.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 14 Apr 2016, 08:47

biffvernon wrote:vt: http://dark-mountain.net/

Mark wrote: Very few people will live the pius and self sacrificing life required....
Even for those willing to make some changes, society is structured around carbon in so many ways.....
How many families live in x2 income households, where one person heads off in one direction to work and the other in the opposite direction ?
It's now virtually impossible to buy fruit/veg from the Supermarkets that's not pre-packed in plastic...
How many people in the West can live without their computer/phone etc.
There are 100s of examples....., it's impossible to get away from carbon in modern life....
Our local supermarkets,Co-op, Morrisons, Aldi, Lidl, all have extensive loose veg counters. My local town has two pretty traditional greengrocers and two days a week there's a street market where all the veg and fruit is loose and there are a couple of farm-shops on the way to town!

More importantly is the point often made by Kevin Anderson, one of the more outspoken climate scientists, that most people in the world don't have much climate impact - they're too poor - so we only have to radically change the behaviour of a small proportion of humanity.

OK, argue the details if you wish. I generally shop at Aldi (virtually no loose veg) and Morrisons (very little) as I work full time, so find it difficult to get to the local shops. Maybe your branches are different, but I doubt it.....

I could have picked on other random examples - the paint you put on the walls, the plastic wrapping on your magazine, the plastic cover on your dry cleaning.... It's everywhere in modern life - you can't get away from oil/carbon completely unless you become a hermit and live in a cave....

If you're as good as you portray yourself, you wouldn't be on here burning carbon....

Post by **clv101** » 14 Apr 2016, 08:58

Mark, it's not about the details. The key point is wealth. To a first approximation the more you spend the more climate impact you have. Figuring out how to live on £8k year, or even £18k instead of £28k or £38k is one of the most effective things an individual can do about their climate impact.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 14 Apr 2016, 10:59

'Plastic cover on your dry cleaning'. I wouldn't worry about the plastic cover...

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 14 Apr 2016, 15:19

woodburner wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
More importantly is the point often made by Kevin Anderson, one of the more outspoken climate scientists, that most people in the world don't have much climate impact - they're too poor - so we only have to radically change the behaviour of a small proportion of humanity.
Individually they might not have much effect, collectively they amount to a significant amount. The ocean is full of drops.

Listen to Anderson do the maths on that.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:16

clv101 wrote:Mark, it's not about the details. The key point is wealth. To a first approximation the more you spend the more climate impact you have. Figuring out how to live on £8k year, or even £18k instead of £28k or £38k is one of the most effective things an individual can do about their climate impact.

You're as unrealistic as Biff, if you think people are going to voluntarily chop £10/20k from their salaries to curb climate change.....

Mark · Post by **Mark** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:20

emordnilap wrote:'Plastic cover on your dry cleaning'. I wouldn't worry about the plastic cover...

Yes, the dry-cleaning solvents too.....
That just reinforces the point I was making - carbon is everywhere and virtually impossible to avoid in modern life......

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:21

voluntarily chop £10/20k from their salaries to curb climate change.....

Who said anyone was going to do that voluntarily?

(Though quite a few people do choose to live simple lives with little money.)

And note that most people in the world do already live on less than £8k.

Post by **clv101** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:27

Mark wrote:
clv101 wrote:Mark, it's not about the details. The key point is wealth. To a first approximation the more you spend the more climate impact you have. Figuring out how to live on £8k year, or even £18k instead of £28k or £38k is one of the most effective things an individual can do about their climate impact.
You're as unrealistic as Biff, if you think people are going to voluntarily chop £10/20k from their salaries to curb climate change.....

No, I'm not being unrealistic. I'm never said I thought anyone was actually going to do it! But I'm right to say living on less is one of the most effective things people can do.

Post by **clv101** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:29

biffvernon wrote:... And note that most people in the world do already live on less than £8k.

Indeed and most people in the world don't contribute much to climate change... the richest billion of though, that's another matter.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:32

My take home pay is now 20k lower than it was 20 years ago. Absolute numbers, about a 50% cut.

However, total family income is about the same.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 14 Apr 2016, 22:40

clv101 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:... And note that most people in the world do already live on less than £8k.
Indeed and most people in the world don't contribute much to climate change... the richest billion of though, that's another matter.

The only reason they do not contribute so much to climate change through consuming high levels of hydrocarbons is because they cannot afford to. If they could they would. In other words, either the supply of hydrocarbons becomes so great that it's price falls below a given threshold, in which case, you can be certain that those countries currently consuming little would, in short order, be consuming a lot. Alternatively, if industrially advanced Western countries cut back on their consumption and so drive the price down that way, again, those countries currently consuming little would start to consume more.

It's called a "prisoner's dillema". It is never in the interest of any single consumer to curtail their own consumption because that consumption will simply be taken up elsewhere to the benefit (however short term) of the new consumer and to the detriment of the forgoer of consumption.

It will be consumed until it is too expensive to consume. That is all.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 15 Apr 2016, 02:51

Mark wrote:..........
You're as unrealistic as Biff, if you think people are going to voluntarily chop £10/20k from their salaries to curb climate change.....

Ordinary people's money is being cut by inflation while the Kleptocracy increase their wages (of sin?). There have been a few graphs posted here recently to show that while the 1% have had a pay increase since the late 70s the wages of ordinary people have flatlined. With inflation that equates to a pay rise for the rich and a pay cut for the poor. No wonder the economy is stuffed.

Post by **clv101** » 15 Apr 2016, 07:17

Little John wrote:
clv101 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:... And note that most people in the world do already live on less than £8k.
Indeed and most people in the world don't contribute much to climate change... the richest billion of though, that's another matter.
The only reason they do not contribute so much to climate change through consuming high levels of hydrocarbons is because they cannot afford to.

Of course, that's exactly the point I'm making.