Companies going bankrupt/into administration

[vtsnowedin]

You think the title to the coal beds will be worth something?

Changing lightbulbs didn't work http://biffvernon.blogspot.co.uk/

Yes most certainly some years out. Especially the metallurgical coal. We may stop burning it as a heat source but we will still need the carbon to make steel. We will also probably drill and and extract methane from coal seams when other supplies of natural gas run short.

[biffvernon]

Only if climate change denial wins.

[vtsnowedin]

Only if climate change denial wins.

Even without that. We will still need the coal as a feed stock for liquid fuels and substitutes for petrochemicals. Hopefully we will have found a way to use it without releasing undue amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere but unless the world population drops to below one billion I expect we will eventually use all the oil and all the coal that can be recovered.

[biffvernon]

Only if climate change denial wins.

Even without that. We will still need the coal as a feed stock for liquid fuels and substitutes for petrochemicals. Hopefully we will have found a way to use it without releasing undue amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere but unless the world population drops to below one billion I expect we will eventually use all the oil and all the coal that can be recovered.

Looks like climate denial is alive and well then. What's so hard to understand about the fact that we have to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some?

[Mark]

Only if climate change denial wins.

Even without that. We will still need the coal as a feed stock for liquid fuels and substitutes for petrochemicals. Hopefully we will have found a way to use it without releasing undue amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere but unless the world population drops to below one billion I expect we will eventually use all the oil and all the coal that can be recovered.

Looks like climate denial is alive and well then. What's so hard to understand about the fact that we have to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some?

It's an admirable ambition to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some....
However, like so many of your posts, you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living....
Global population is still growing, personal ambition is still to buy a house/car/TV/fridge, food production requires vast amounts of fossil fuels, etc.etc. etc.
The world's marginalised poor and a very small percentage in the West live with minimal carbon footprint, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the mainstream 'normal' life of the vast majority.... However 'logical' the argument, the situation isn't going to change any time soon.

[kenneal - lagger]

With the US and Australia living a ten planet lifestyle and Europe a five planet lifestyle there is going to have to be a lowering of expectations somewhere if we are to give the Third World even a little more of the cake. For us to take even a little less of the cake would involve busting the banking and then economic system. The *ankers aren't going to allow that for as long as they can so the system will have to be broken by someone or by some accident; accident being the most likely at the moment.

[vtsnowedin]

Yes I am not proposing that that the use of fossil fuels should not be curtailed, just recognizing that they wont be due to human nature at least not before or because of a catastrophe.

[biffvernon]

It's an admirable ambition to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some....
However, like so many of your posts, you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living....
Global population is still growing, personal ambition is still to buy a house/car/TV/fridge, food production requires vast amounts of fossil fuels, etc.etc. etc.
The world's marginalised poor and a very small percentage in the West live with minimal carbon footprint, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the mainstream 'normal' life of the vast majority.... However 'logical' the argument, the situation isn't going to change any time soon.

It's not just an admirable ambition, it is necessary if we are to have a sporting chance of keeping global warming to a couple of degrees, and unless we do that then the danger for civilisation is existential. You are quite wrong when you say "you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living". It is absurd to suggest that I don't see the reality, but it is also absurd to not see the reality that the trajectory we are on is unsustainable. We have to change.

[biffvernon]

just recognizing that they wont be due to human nature at least not before or because of a catastrophe.

You might be right but to do nothing is to make a self-fulfilling prophesy. I'm not sure about human 'nature' whatever that is but we have to work to change human behaviour in order to avoid catastrophe. I prefer not to be an idle by-stander.

[vtsnowedin]

just recognizing that they wont be due to human nature at least not before or because of a catastrophe.

You might be right but to do nothing is to make a self-fulfilling prophesy. I'm not sure about human 'nature' whatever that is but we have to work to change human behaviour in order to avoid catastrophe. I prefer not to be an idle by-stander.

You assume my activity is confined to this board. I'm an active voter and hold a minor public office and have worked with and for government for decades. My pessimism comes from those decades of experience trying to get worthwhile things done.
But given all that I have not given up and continue to support and vote for those that have a clear view of reality and are working in the right direction.
How does that saying go? something like "Do not let the possible become the victim to the perfect."

[biffvernon]

You assume my activity is confined to this board.

Oh no! We've seen pictures of you in the great outdoors with your tractor.

[Mark]

It's an admirable ambition to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some....
However, like so many of your posts, you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living....
Global population is still growing, personal ambition is still to buy a house/car/TV/fridge, food production requires vast amounts of fossil fuels, etc.etc. etc.
The world's marginalised poor and a very small percentage in the West live with minimal carbon footprint, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the mainstream 'normal' life of the vast majority.... However 'logical' the argument, the situation isn't going to change any time soon.

It's not just an admirable ambition, it is necessary if we are to have a sporting chance of keeping global warming to a couple of degrees, and unless we do that then the danger for civilisation is existential. You are quite wrong when you say "you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living". It is absurd to suggest that I don't see the reality, but it is also absurd to not see the reality that the trajectory we are on is unsustainable. We have to change.

Very few people will live the pius and self sacrificing life required....
Even for those willing to make some changes, society is structured around carbon in so many ways.....
How many families live in x2 income households, where one person heads off in one direction to work and the other in the opposite direction ?
It's now virtually impossible to buy fruit/veg from the Supermarkets that's not pre-packed in plastic...
How many people in the West can live without their computer/phone etc.
There are 100s of examples....., it's impossible to get away from carbon in modern life....

[vtsnowedin]

It's an admirable ambition to reduce carbon emissions to zero PDQ and then some....
However, like so many of your posts, you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living....
Global population is still growing, personal ambition is still to buy a house/car/TV/fridge, food production requires vast amounts of fossil fuels, etc.etc. etc.
The world's marginalised poor and a very small percentage in the West live with minimal carbon footprint, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the mainstream 'normal' life of the vast majority.... However 'logical' the argument, the situation isn't going to change any time soon.

It's not just an admirable ambition, it is necessary if we are to have a sporting chance of keeping global warming to a couple of degrees, and unless we do that then the danger for civilisation is existential. You are quite wrong when you say "you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living". It is absurd to suggest that I don't see the reality, but it is also absurd to not see the reality that the trajectory we are on is unsustainable. We have to change.

Very few people will live the pius and self sacrificing life required....
Even for those willing to make some changes, society is structured around carbon in so many ways.....
How many families live in x2 income households, where one person heads off in one direction to work and the other in the opposite direction ?
It's now virtually impossible to buy fruit/veg from the Supermarkets that's not pre-packed in plastic...
How many people in the West can live without their computer/phone etc.
There are 100s of examples....., it's impossible to get away from carbon in modern life....

The supermarkets I use have plenty of fresh produce that is not packed in anything. There are packs in plastic for those that want them but you have the choice. My computer is for entertainment (yaking with you guys) and my cell phone is for work but I don't need either one. I do burn wood to heat the house which has carbon in it but that was true of Neanderthals and their cave shelters so isn't exactly modern.
We live the life you describe as long as it is the best option available. When things change so will we.

[clv101]

It's not just an admirable ambition, it is necessary if we are to have a sporting chance of keeping global warming to a couple of degrees, and unless we do that then the danger for civilisation is existential. You are quite wrong when you say "you don't seem to accept the reality of modern day living". It is absurd to suggest that I don't see the reality, but it is also absurd to not see the reality that the trajectory we are on is unsustainable. We have to change.

You might be right but to do nothing is to make a self-fulfilling prophesy. I'm not sure about human 'nature' whatever that is but we have to work to change human behaviour in order to avoid catastrophe. I prefer not to be an idle by-stander.

This is a key point. At what point does one have to accept failure "of keeping global warming to a couple of degrees"? Do we need to actually experience a 30 year average of +2C or is it sooner? My (not-uneducated) opinion on this matter is that we have already failed to limit this warming baring some pretty big unknown unknowns (global pandemic, volcano, asteroid, nuclear war etc...)

I don't think it follows that admitting this (arbitrary) failure is the same as being an idle by-stander.

A good question to be working on is what is the best thing to do today, given that we have failed to avoid dangerous climate change, that we are likely to lose many/most costal cities in coming centuries etc? Dark Mountain have been developing this narrative for quite a few years now.

[vtsnowedin]

A good question to be working on is what is the best thing to do today, given that we have failed to avoid dangerous climate change, that we are likely to lose many/most costal cities in coming centuries etc? Dark Mountain have been developing this narrative for quite a few years now.

I have not come across Dark mountain so don't have their input. If you live on the coast then obviously move inland but what I can do that might have a positive result has so far escaped me.
If it gets warm enough I maybe able to grow grapes and make wine. would not want to be in the vineyards now when they turn to desert.