Migrant watch (merged topic)

Discussion of the latest Peak Oil news (please also check the Website News area below)

Moderator: Peak Moderation

User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

snow hope wrote: As predicted, Biff chooses to ignore what is said because he has no answer. Again it is plain for all to see.
I choose to ignore posts that are from people who are repeatedly personally abusive. To say that " he has no answer." is not true.
snow hope wrote:And as for posting links, that one does not agree with? Who does that apart from Biff and trolls?
I post links which I consider worth reading in the context of the thread. Usually they are things I largely agree with, but that should not be taken for granted. People with different opinions to mine are sometimes worth taking note of.

If you don't want to read them, then don't.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 13499
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
Location: UK

Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:
snow hope wrote: As predicted, Biff chooses to ignore what is said because he has no answer. Again it is plain for all to see.
I choose to ignore posts that are from people who are repeatedly personally abusive. To say that " he has no answer." is not true.
It's absolutely true. You are using "he's being abusive" as a means of avoiding questions you can't answer, because answering them exposes fundamental contradictions in your own position.

And yes I am being abusive, because you are being dishonest, which you promised you would not do.

Stop posting things you don't believe in an attempt to support other things you do believe, and all of these arguments will cease. If you want to say you believe in unlimited immigration then fine. But if you try to support it by posting articles claiming that preventing immigration will limit economic growth, and presenting this as a bad thing, then that is NOT FINE, because it is RANK HYPOCRISY.
Last edited by UndercoverElephant on 29 Mar 2016, 22:22, edited 1 time in total.
snow hope
Posts: 4101
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

Post by snow hope »

biffvernon wrote:
snow hope wrote: As predicted, Biff chooses to ignore what is said because he has no answer. Again it is plain for all to see.
I choose to ignore posts that are from people who are repeatedly personally abusive. To say that " he has no answer." is not true.
Prove it.
biffvernon wrote:
snow hope wrote:And as for posting links, that one does not agree with? Who does that apart from Biff and trolls?
I post links which I consider worth reading in the context of the thread. Usually they are things I largely agree with, but that should not be taken for granted. People with different opinions to mine are sometimes worth taking note of.
I would suggest that everybody can see that is disingenuous....
Real money is gold and silver
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

Prove what?

If you think that I was being disingenuous, then I must say that you are mistaken. It was a very straight-forward statement and completely true. If you don't believe me, I'm sorry, but that's your problem, not mine.

Now how about discussing the actual issues rather than getting personal?

What did you think, for instance, of that article in the Independent by Jon Stone that I linked to?
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 13499
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
Location: UK

Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote: I post links which I consider worth reading in the context of the thread. Usually they are things I largely agree with, but that should not be taken for granted. People with different opinions to mine are sometimes worth taking note of.

If you don't want to read them, then don't.
https://www.britainfirst.org/tag/immigration/
Migrant invasion will leave Britain unrecognisable
Umm, I'm just posting this because I consider it worth reading in the context of the thread. I might agree with it, but that shouldn't be taken for granted.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t553062/
Top 10 reasons why the holocaust didn't happen.
Umm, ah, yes, I'm just posting this because I consider it worth reading. Maybe I agree with it, maybe I don't, but I'm certainly not going to make my views on this clear because, um, ah, oh...

http://www.context.org/iclib/ic22/barry/
Global Warming Is A Communist Plot
I'm just posting this because I thought it was interesting. Maybe I believe it, maybe I don't.

Duckin' and divin', duckin' and divin'...

LIAR.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 13499
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
Location: UK

Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:Prove what?

If you think that I was being disingenuous, then I must say that you are mistaken.
Do you or do you not believe that economic growth is a desirable thing?
User avatar
clv101
Site Admin
Posts: 10555
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Contact:

Post by clv101 »

The answer is obviously 'it depends'!

If we're talking about mine, yours and pretty much everyone else's 'quality of life' in the UK. It would be better, desirable, for the UK to grow at 1% per year for the next 5 years than to contract a 1% per year for the next five years.

However, if we're talking about the planetary ecosystem's ability to maintain biodiversity, and indeed a long term, lower impact, human civilisation to boot, a 90% collapse in economic activity followed shortly after by a similar population crash would be desirable.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 13499
Joined: 10 Mar 2008, 00:00
Location: UK

Post by UndercoverElephant »

clv101 wrote:The answer is obviously 'it depends'!

If we're talking about mine, yours and pretty much everyone else's 'quality of life' in the UK. It would be better, desirable, for the UK to grow at 1% per year for the next 5 years than to contract a 1% per year for the next five years.

However, if we're talking about the planetary ecosystem's ability to maintain biodiversity, and indeed a long term, lower impact, human civilisation to boot, a 90% collapse in economic activity followed shortly after by a similar population crash would be desirable.
Yes, it depends.

I'll offer a third branch of your "it depends".

What about "quality of life" in the UK and/or north-west Europe in the longer-term future (within the lifetime of children born now)?

This is not merely a choice between what is good for us, right here, right now, in the UK, and what is good for the non-human global ecosystem. Even if you accept that much of the human world is doomed, it does not follow that the more socially and politically advanced parts of the northern hemisphere are doomed, not least because we're far less susceptible to the consequences of climate change to some of the less socially and politically advanced parts. You might argue that is unfair, but it is the reality regardless.

It comes down to a question about whether it is ethically justifiable to try to hold on to the best of human social and cultural creations in a circumpolar northern enclave + various outlying places like Australasia and Japan, while Africa and the Middle East go to hell without passing Go.
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 14290
Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Biff has also completely ignored my point about "sustainable" growth. If you can't argue against it ignore it hoping that it will go away so you and your belief system isn't compromised.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
snow hope
Posts: 4101
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

Post by snow hope »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Biff has also completely ignored my point about "sustainable" growth. If you can't argue against it ignore it hoping that it will go away so you and your belief system isn't compromised.
Of course he has. That is what he does, as outlined very clearly by UE.

Disingenuous is the best work to explain it. :x
Real money is gold and silver
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

Lost in a welter of nonsense
kenneal - lagger wrote:All that shows is that we are addicted to unsustainable growth and need to drastically change the way that we run the economy!

Wouldn't you agree that continuous growth is unsustainable, Biff?
I guess the answer has to be it depends. Growth in the activities that cause environmental destruction is unsustainable. Ideally, we should stop burning fossil carbon today, having not stopped when I suggested it 30 years ago. Growth in the human spirit of creativeness, art, poetry, jazz, has no limit. Between these two there are a host of human activities whose growth can, for quite some time yet, contribute to the sum total of human happiness without causing much if any environmental damage and of course there can be great changes in redistribution of wealth that will see economic growth for some people and degrowth for others. Quality of life is not necessarily reduced, and may even be enhanced, by degrowth.

A significant question is not whether continuous growth is unsustainable but to what extent can growth be decoupled from environmental degradation.

As I'm sure we all know, GDP is a really rubbish measure.
snow hope
Posts: 4101
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

Post by snow hope »

Disingenuous answer again!

Biff, you know fine well the question was relating to economic growth. :evil:
Real money is gold and silver
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

No not disingenuous, as honest and full an answer I am capable of giving in the time between muesli and toast. I presume nobody here is dumb enough to ask if infinite growth in resource consumption on a finite planet is possible.

Meanwhile here's a view from an immigrant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDlAAEm ... e=youtu.be
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 14290
Joined: 20 Sep 2006, 02:35
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

The movement of millions of people from a Mediterranean climate to our northern European one will involve a vast increase in their energy usage for a start as well as the immediate increase in carbon use in the building of their new housing. I did a project for my MSc course on modelling two buildings exactly the same, one in London and one in Edinburgh. The Edinburgh one used twice the energy that the London one did. I would hate to think what the difference would be between London and Allepo. The potential for PV in Allepo must be far greater than that for London or Northern Europe as well.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18538
Joined: 24 Nov 2005, 11:09
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

What is the difference in temperature during the heating season between Edinburgh and London? I'd guess about 3°?
(This is interesting, but rather off topic as it is not relevant to migration - unless a lot of Londoners flee north or the border.)

Paul Currion's article will probably be disliked by some folk here as it challenges the concept of the nation state.

http://www.refugeesdeeply.org/op-eds/20 ... ion-state/

For the record, I think he is spot on.
Post Reply