Jihad Watch

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Mar 2016, 05:13

I saw mention of the riot on BBC last night.

So far most of the terrorists have been home grown, born in this country of immigrant parents. So keeping out immigrants will reduce the probable number of terrorists in the next generation but not at this time. It would seem to be quite easy to get illegals into the UK in lorries at the moment so if ISIS wanted to get people in now is the time while we still have an ineffective border force.

52 were found in lorries in Kent recently but, luckily, they didn't have weapons. A few with weapons, even if they were detected en route into the UK, could cause havoc before the new SAS helicopter force could get to them.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Mar 2016, 08:00

The people in lorries are fleeing the actions of Daesh.
Daesh have the money and wherewithal to fly their people in, executive class, should they so choose.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 28 Mar 2016, 10:18

It's an awkward truth that the USA and the UK promoted regime change while Russia upheld the legitimate constitutional government of Syria and that it was Russia that stopped the export of oil through Turkey and to Israel that was funding Daesh.

Robert Fisk gives some home truths:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 55406.html

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 28 Mar 2016, 14:14

biffvernon wrote:It's an awkward truth that the USA and the UK promoted regime change while Russia upheld the legitimate constitutional government of Syria and that it was Russia that stopped the export of oil through Turkey and to Israel that was funding Daesh.

Robert Fisk gives some home truths:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 55406.html

It is worth tracing back the steps and thinking that led us into this insane strategic mess. Why are our leaders so reluctant to congratulate Assad's forces on this victory over ISIS?

Answer: because at the start of the war in Syria, and for many years beforehand, the west had treated Assad as an enemy and tried repeatedly to topple him.

But why did we do that?

Answer: because he is an unelected military strongman supported by Russia and Iran, and because the idiots who are making the decisions thought it was possible to replace him with a US-friendly democracy. This is despite the fact that the same plan had already gone horribly wrong in Iraq, and was heading that way in Libya.

Western leaders made a fundamental mistake in understanding the way politics works in the Islamic world. There are only two options, and stable democracy isn't one of them. The options are secular military government where all opposition, especially Islamist opposition, is brutally suppressed, OR Islamism.

In other words, the mistake they made was believing it was possible to establish western-style democratic governance in places where the majority of the population are muslims.

The problem is Islam, Biff. Incompetent, inconsisent and hypocritical decisions by western leaders haven't helped, but the underlying problem is Islam.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 28 Mar 2016, 14:34

biffvernon wrote:The people in lorries are fleeing the actions of Daesh.
Daesh have the money and wherewithal to fly their people in, executive class, should they so choose.

No, Biff! The people in the lorries come from all over the place from West Africa to Pakistan and China and all points between! Most of them from Africa are only fleeing Daesh because they went to Libya, where there is a Daesh presence, on their way to Europe. If they stayed at home most of them wouldn't come across Daesh any more than we do in the UK.

It's the fitter ones that are getting on the lorries and could it be the better trained ones?

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 28 Mar 2016, 15:29

UndercoverElephant wrote:
biffvernon wrote:It's an awkward truth that the USA and the UK promoted regime change while Russia upheld the legitimate constitutional government of Syria and that it was Russia that stopped the export of oil through Turkey and to Israel that was funding Daesh.

Robert Fisk gives some home truths:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why ... 55406.html
It is worth tracing back the steps and thinking that led us into this insane strategic mess. Why are our leaders so reluctant to congratulate Assad's forces on this victory over ISIS?

Answer: because at the start of the war in Syria, and for many years beforehand, the west had treated Assad as an enemy and tried repeatedly to topple him.

But why did we do that?

Answer: because he is an unelected military strongman supported by Russia and Iran, and because the idiots who are making the decisions thought it was possible to replace him with a US-friendly democracy. This is despite the fact that the same plan had already gone horribly wrong in Iraq, and was heading that way in Libya.

Western leaders made a fundamental mistake in understanding the way politics works in the Islamic world. There are only two options, and stable democracy isn't one of them. The options are secular military government where all opposition, especially Islamist opposition, is brutally suppressed, OR Islamism.

In other words, the mistake they made was believing it was possible to establish western-style democratic governance in places where the majority of the population are muslims.

The problem is Islam, Biff. Incompetent, inconsisent and hypocritical decisions by western leaders haven't helped, but the underlying problem is Islam.

you are right

And pretty much every western looking or democratic thing in the muslim world either came from colonialism or from strong men like attaturk in Turkey who were impressed by western strength and wanted to copy it .

And the only thing thats stopped jihad violent attacks from muslim majority countrys has been when they were too weak, or had been whomped by non muslim countrys .

Both shia and sunni are doing suicide attack I think 500 out of 502 suicide attacks worldwide were done by muslims, and they do these attacks either on non muslims, or the other branch of islam or on muslims they think are not muslim enough .

Suicide attacks comes from the idea from the quran that you get the highest reward in heaven by dieing fighting for islam, before they learned that technique of suicide they would try to die fighting for islam .

Trumps right on muslims but not going far enough because of political reasons

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 28 Mar 2016, 16:59

Agreed.

Trump is pretty weak on Islam but he's the strongest out there, for the moment.

We still need a real leader who says it as it is. Until somebody like that comes along, Trump is the best we have.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 29 Mar 2016, 09:21

There already exists a religious War with Daesh accompanied by a lot of Western Liberal denial about it. Of course, Daesh and their ilk would not be exerting the power they are without those other Western (largely led by the USA) forces stirring the hornet's nest that is the Middle East and Northern Africa. But, irrespective of the proximal carnage of Daesh there has been brewing, distally, a broader "100 years war" between different factions in the Muslim world for centuries. Western foreign policy adventurism has merely triggered an already volatile situation. One that might have resolved itself peacefully over a few more centuries in the absence of that Western intervention. Then again, maybe not. It hardly matters now since what is done is done. One thing is absolutely clear, though. There is a war under way between Islam and the rest of the world and trying to continue to make out it is just some local difficulties related to a specific bunch of nutters that is naive or disingenuous.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 29 Mar 2016, 11:35

Little John wrote: One thing is absolutely clear, though. There is a war under way between Islam and the rest of the world and trying to continue to make out it is just some local difficulties related to a specific bunch of nutters that is naive or disingenuous.

That is basically not true. There may be quite a few specific individuals, but for example they are fighting the Shi'a hence claiming that there is a war between the Shi'a and the rest of the world does not fit with your analysis. Nor does a lot more reality.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 29 Mar 2016, 12:43

johnhemming2 wrote:
Little John wrote: One thing is absolutely clear, though. There is a war under way between Islam and the rest of the world and trying to continue to make out it is just some local difficulties related to a specific bunch of nutters that is naive or disingenuous.
That is basically not true. There may be quite a few specific individuals, but for example they are fighting the Shi'a hence claiming that there is a war between the Shi'a and the rest of the world does not fit with your analysis. Nor does a lot more reality.

The Shia and Sunni have been at odds with each other for centuries and both of them, on and off, have been at odds with various parts of the non Muslim world for centuries as well. All of which, into the bargain, is a more or less accurate description of what is happening right now. Which part of that do you wish to refute?

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 29 Mar 2016, 14:23

So the Shia Ayatollahs of Iran weren't at war with Christendom then, John?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 29 Mar 2016, 14:39

We have at times been at war with various people. Normally historically for the last millennium it was Christians as the Muslims were much further away (although there were the Crusades, of course).

If there are wars going on at the moment you need to know who the war is with. Some people want a bigger war involving more people and some people (including myself) want to reduce the people involved in conflict.

It appears you are arguing for a global war between all Muslims (whether that includes the Ahmaddiya or not is unclear) and everyone else.

I think that is nuts.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 29 Mar 2016, 15:07

I'm not advocating war with anyone. I'm just saying that all branches of Islam have been at war with us at some stage for a while.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 29 Mar 2016, 15:57

kenneal - lagger wrote: I'm just saying that all branches of Islam have been at war with us at some stage for a while.

But there are 1.6 billion Muslims. How come we are still alive?

I've never met a violent Muslim who advocates war. I've met a fair number of peaceful ones.

Did you see this lot on Facebook, Ken?
https://www.facebook.com/14899822313212 ... =3&theater

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 29 Mar 2016, 16:23

biffvernon wrote:
kenneal - lagger wrote: I'm just saying that all branches of Islam have been at war with us at some stage for a while.
But there are 1.6 billion Muslims. How come we are still alive?

What a stupid question. Do you ever bother to think before you post?

Humans have been plagued by diseases for the whole of human history.

But there are hundreds of nasty diseases. How come we are still alive?

Fish have been hunted by humans for hundreds of years.

But there are billions of humans. How come the fish are still alive?

Shia muslims have been fighting Sunni muslims since the 6th century.

But there are 1.6 billion muslims. How come any of them are still alive?

You are an intelligent, well-educated man, and you should be ashamed of the drivel you post on this forum.