Migrant watch (merged topic)

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 20 Mar 2016, 21:02

Lord Beria3 wrote: Focusing on him all the time gets in the way of the debate.

Yep.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 21 Mar 2016, 10:13

With over 1.1m migrants arriving in Germany, even the Germans want their own referendum....

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/653 ... ant-crisis

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 22 Mar 2016, 14:48

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02 ... nt-crisis/

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 22 Mar 2016, 15:27

Lord Beria3 wrote:I think the focus on Biff is a bit boring, to be honest.

Biff represents a very small portion of the populace and the viewpoint he represents simply doesn't reflect what the great majority of people think.

Focusing on him all the time gets in the way of the debate.

Much more productive would be to discuss what we think is likely to happen going forward and how best to adapt (individually and collectively) to these challenges.

Agreed - the trouble is he keeps side-tracking the discussion and there is no ignore button, which is somewhat frustrating for quite a lot of people on here.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Mar 2016, 15:51

What he does is post things that don't actually have anything to do with the real debate, but do imply that the people who are taking part in the real debate have somehow missed the point (the point they've missed being that migrants are people too and that being anti-immigration is inhumane). This effectively forces a response, because it cannot be allowed to go unchallenged, but because the posts are always oblique and implied, the response can't be short.

It is a very effective way of derailing threads.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 22 Mar 2016, 18:38

UndercoverElephant wrote:What he does is post things that don't actually have anything to do with the real debate, but do imply that the people who are taking part in the real debate have somehow missed the point (the point they've missed being that migrants are people too and that being anti-immigration is inhumane). This effectively forces a response, because it cannot be allowed to go unchallenged, but because the posts are always oblique and implied, the response can't be short.

It is a very effective way of derailing threads.

You could tread Biff on certain threads like one of those inflatable 'bop bags' that you used to be able to buy ie they had a picture of a baddie on it and you filled the base with sand or water, which meant it used to come back up at you when you hit it. That way, when he responds with one of his typical silly responses, you won't get too upset and can then concentrate on other posters discussing the topic at hand. Works for me.........

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Mar 2016, 18:57

Or you could just join in with a continuing hate campaign of ad hominem attacks, personal abuse and erection of strawman arguments, rather than in engaging in polite and rational discussion with someone whose views may not exactly match your own.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Mar 2016, 20:09

biffvernon wrote:Or you could just join in with a continuing hate campaign of ad hominem attacks, personal abuse and erection of strawman arguments, rather than in engaging in polite and rational discussion with someone whose views may not exactly match your own.

The problem is not that your views don't match ours, but that your views imply that ours are rooted in selfishness and bigotry and betray a moral inferiority. This was bad enough when the consequences of applying your opinions to the real world weren't known, and it was one person's theory against another. Now they are known, but you have shown no willingness at all to adapt your opinions in the light of the evidence.

You are not engaging in rational discussion. If you were being rational then you'd take real world events into account instead of pretending they aren't happening.

I don't want this feud to continue. I'd like it to end. But it cannot end so long as you inflexibly continue to defend a position that has become completely indefensible and implies that everybody else has unethical motives. The cause of these arguments is you, Biff.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 22 Mar 2016, 20:18

The real problems are only just starting, if you're not willing to adapt.

This "migrant crisis" is only going to get worse. Much worse. And the threat to living standards, social cohesions, public services, political stability, etc... is just going to get worse. The reasons for stopping the migration, by whatever means necessary, are just going to get bigger.

And if through all that you just continue to argue for an open door policy and imply that everybody else is unethical and selfish for rejecting it, then the arguments on this forum - the "hate campaign" is also just going to get worse.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Mar 2016, 15:28

Message from a friend of mine in Greece (rubbish English):

This morning's news from someone in Samos
Update from Samos:
As I said camps now closed, Ngos, there should be no more in just like all the volunteers.
Even handing out clothes can't now.
Get the people in the camp papers then they can go to the port where they then go on the ferry to Northern Greece.
That's not even a great prospect.
The People (refugees) are scared, insecure, they have no idea what's gonna happen.
This is how we treat people who are fleeing bombs, drones and violence. Partly caused by our f in the region.
And then, are we still don't think this is the wrong way?
Hopefully do ‪#‎msf‬, ‪#‎unhcr‬ more than just stop to help. Go they raise the alarm, and stand up for all these people.
Anyone can do that, tweeting, as you can, share as much as possible and ensure that this does not disappear from the news.
The only thing the eu pounding proud to report is that the stream of refugees is decreasing, yes, so far, and to the Greek Islands. Take a look at Italy, here they come now with hundreds if not thousands of. Next route, next problem.
The deal didn't resolve anything, only the situation of people on the flight seriously deteriorated.
Twitter, share and let me hear you, let this crisis, and these people don't just fade into the background.
Camps closed, no more NGO's as well and no volunteers.
Distributing of clothes also not possible.
People in the camps waiting for papers, if they get papers then they can go to the harbor where they will get on a Ferry to Nothern Greece, next camp.
They are scared, don't now what is going to happen and what to do.
We hope #MSF, #UNHCR will do more that just stop helping, but will protest that this is not the way.
The camps are full all over Greece and Europe did not move a single refugee from the camps to other countries.
Not from Greece, not from Turkey, the deal is clearly not working.
They can say proudly that there are less refugees coming to Greece at the moment but look at Italy ... hundreds, thousands arriving there at the moment.
Please, twitter, share to all organisations, Human Rights, politicians, to make sure this crisis will not be forgotten and the refugees will get a safe place.
We will keep you updated

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Mar 2016, 16:02

biffvernon wrote:Message from a friend of mine in Greece (rubbish English):

And why you are quoting this message?

Answer: to try to defend your own position, even though the person you are quoting is not in your position, because they have not taken part in all the discussion you have taken part in.

The People (refugees) are scared, insecure, they have no idea what's gonna happen.

We know.

This is how we treat people who are fleeing bombs, drones and violence.

No, it is how we treat economic migrants, who were encouraged to come to Europe by people like Biff Vernon, and now the people who are fleeing the bombs, drones and violence are stuck in Greece. They are stuck there because of the idiotic decisions of people like YOU. Idiotic decisions you continue to try to defend.

Partly caused by our f in the region.

Pile on that guilt. Oh yes you guilty, guilty, guilty people.

Mainly caused by overpopulation, climate change and a poisonous religion that those same people are bringing to Europe with them.

Anyone can do that, tweeting, as you can, share as much as possible and ensure that this does not disappear from the news.

There is no chance of it disappearing from the news. There is also no chance that reporting it on the news will change the decision to close the Greek-Macedonian border and return these people to Turkey.

The only thing the eu pounding proud to report is that the stream of refugees is decreasing, yes, so far, and to the Greek Islands.

HOO-frickin-RAY!

Take a look at Italy, here they come now with hundreds if not thousands of. Next route, next problem.

That problem is very easily solved by closing the northern Italian border to migrants. It has been demonstrated to work in Greece; it will work in Italy.

The camps are full all over Greece and Europe did not move a single refugee from the camps to other countries.

Yep. Message getting through yet, Biff? Penny finally dropping?

Quoting a message from some other deluded soul who doesn't understand what is going on changes nothing. The flow of migrants into northern Europe has stopped, it will remain stopped. If these people do not want to end up in squalid camps in Greece and Italy then they'd best not get on that boat.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 23 Mar 2016, 21:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLwv-G9COQ

Shakespeare wrote:You’ll put down strangers,/ Kill them, cut their throats, possess their houses,/ And lead the majesty of law in lyam/ To slip him like a hound. Alas, alas! Say now the King/ As he is clement if th’offender mourn,/ Should so much come too short of your great trespass/ As but to banish you: whither would you go?/What country, by the nature of your error,/ Should give you harbour? Go you to France or Flanders,/ To any German province, Spain or Portugal,/ Nay, anywhere that not adheres to England:/ Why, you must needs be strangers.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/m ... exhibition

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 23 Mar 2016, 23:59

biffvernon wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiLwv-G9COQ

Shakespeare wrote:You’ll put down strangers,/ Kill them, cut their throats, possess their houses,/ And lead the majesty of law in lyam/ To slip him like a hound. Alas, alas! Say now the King/ As he is clement if th’offender mourn,/ Should so much come too short of your great trespass/ As but to banish you: whither would you go?/What country, by the nature of your error,/ Should give you harbour? Go you to France or Flanders,/ To any German province, Spain or Portugal,/ Nay, anywhere that not adheres to England:/ Why, you must needs be strangers.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/m ... exhibition

great video loved the comments

this one was good
tanya masters
They come, they come as helpless immigrants mostly young men unarmed and seemingly harmless. but once here in, they do arm themselves and demand special treatment and immunity from our laws. to not only give them shelter bit fine homes and furnishings cars monies and when they go to fight against us...we must pay them war benefits, as if they ate our soldiers. these are not immigrants these,are invaders...and if we do not fight and push them out of our lands we will have no lands...then where will we go

once Mohammad was taken into a Christian city as an immigrant. they cared for him took pitty on him.
with in five year's he killed everyone there and took all the women as sex slaves.
Islam is not a religion of peace and love... it is a religion of murder theft deception slavery and the total dominance over women.
The God of Islam Allah.
Is not the Same God of Christians and jews.

Allah is a God of darkness Evil Islam is the celebration of Evil.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 24 Mar 2016, 00:01

or this comment
pitchblackfox
Shakespeare lived in a world where the fastest mode of transport was the horse & there was no welfare state. i bet if thousands of Spaniards were migrating to England during the Anglo-Spanish War he would change his mind, especially if they moved into his neighborhood and he was forced to pay taxes to pay for them

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 24 Mar 2016, 14:18

It is not quite true to say that Biff's posts are a complete derail or not interesting. He is not alone. He's defending a point of view that has been popular for a long time in western world, especially in north-west Europe, but which is now out of step with the way the world has changed.

There is a cultural change taking place and Biff is one a dwindling band of individuals who are still resisting that change. I know plenty of others, mainly through facebook. The message coming from the mainstream media and the establishment is also changing - that's why we're seeing Piers Morgan defending Trump's arguments on Islam and its why we're seeing Tony Blair attacking "flabby liberalism".

I suspect this flabby liberalism won't die completely until the Vernon/Corbyn generation start retiring from active political life.