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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

http://atimes.com/2016/03/the-30-soluti ... -spengler/
The Middle East today

The Causes: Several important countries in the Middle East are subject to perfect storm of demographics and economics. The population cohort aged 15 to 24 years in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran jumped from 15 million in 1995 to about 30 million in 2010. This bulge population has poor prospects. Youth unemployment, according to the World Bank, stands at 30% in Iran and 35% in Iraq. The concept hardly applies to Syria, whose economy is in ruins after five years of a civil war that has displaced perhaps 10 million Syrians out of a population of 22 million. Never, perhaps, has such a large military-age population encountered such poor future prospects in a war zone dominated by non-state extremist actors.

The prospects for economic stabilization of the region’s main actors are poor. The official unemployment rate is 11%, but only 37% of the population is considered economically active, an extremely low ratio given the concentration of Iran’s population in working-age brackets. Social indicators point to deteriorating conditions of life are alarming. The number of marriages has fallen by 20% since 2012. “In Iran, the customary marriage age range is 20-34 for men and 15-29 for women … 46% of men and 48% of women in those age ranges remain unmarried,” according to a June 2, 2015 report in AL-Monitor.[xxii]

Economic problems explain part of the falling marriage rate, but the corrosion of traditional values also is a factor. Iranian researchers estimated late in 2015 that one out of eight Iranian women was infected by chlamydia, a common venereal disease that frequently causes infertility.[xxiii]

When Ayatollah Khomeini took power in 1979, the average Iranian woman had seven children; today the total fertility rate has fallen to just 1.6 children, the sharpest drop in demographic history. Iran still has a young population, but it has no children to succeed them. By mid-century Iran will have a higher proportion of elderly dependents than Europe, an impossible and unprecedented burden for a poor country.

At $30 a barrel, moreover, Iran’s oil and gas revenues are less than $30 billion a year, by my calculations, and less than half of the country’s $64 billion budget for fiscal year 2014.[xxiv] Iran’s sudden aging will be followed by Turkey, Algeria, and Tunisia. Iran is the most literate Muslim country, thanks in large part to an ambitious literacy campaign introduced by the Shah in the early 1970s. Literacy is the best predictor of fertility in the Muslim world: Muslim women who attend high school and university marry late or not at all and have fewer children.[xxv]

Between 2005 and 2020, Iran’s population aged 15 to 24, that is, its pool of potential army recruits, will have fallen by nearly half. Meanwhile Pakistan’s military-age population will rise by nearly 50%. In 2000, Iran had half the military-age men of its eastern Sunni neighbor; by 2020 it will have one-fourth as many. Iran’s bulge generation of youth born in the 1980s is likely to be its last, and its window for asserting Shiite power in the region will close within a decade.

More important, 45% of Iran’s population will be over the age of 65 years by 2050, according to the United Nations’ World Population Prospects constant fertility scenario. No poor country has ever carried such a burden of dependent elderly, because poor countries invariably have a disproportionate number of young people. Iran is the first country to get old before it got rich, and the economic consequences will be catastrophic. This is a danger of which Iran’s leaders are keenly aware.

Saudi Arabia has the opposite problem: it has a high fertility rate and a growing cohort of young people, and may lack the financial resources to meet their expectations. At present oil prices, Saudi Arabia will exhaust its monetary reserves within five years, according a 2015 report by the International Monetary fund.[xxvi]

There are no official data on poverty in Saudi Arabia, but one Saudi newspaper used social service data to estimate that 6 million of the kingdom’s 20 million inhabitants are poor, some desperately so. After the 2011 “Arab Spring” disturbances, Riyadh increased social spending by $37 billion–or $6,000 for every poor person in the kingdom–in order to preempt the spread of discontent to its own territory.

Saudi Arabia now spends $48.5 billion on defense, according to IHS, and plans to increase the total to $63 billion by 2020. The monarchy has to match Iran’s coming conventional military buildup after the P5+1 nuclear agreement to maintain credibility. If oil prices remain low Saudi Arabia will have to sharply reduce subsidies, opening the risk of social instability.

Turkey faces yet another sort of demographic challenge. It fought a four-decade war with its Kurdish separates that killed perhaps 40,000 people. The problem is that Turkey is gradually becoming Kurdish. The Kurds have 3.3 children per female versus only 1.8 for ethnic Turks, demographer Nicholas Eberstadt estimates, which means that within a generation, half the recruits to the Turkish army will come from Kurdish-speaking homes. Turkey’s intervention in the Syrian civil war is motivated in large measure by its fear that the Kurds will succeed in creating an independent self-governing zone on their border, and link up with the Kurdish autonomous region in Iraq.

Demographics, economics and ideology in Asia Minor, the Levant and Mesopotamia combine to create the conditions for a perfect storm. Political analysis of the region tends to focus on the ideological and religious rivalries among Iranian Shi’ism, Sunni Wahhabism and Turkish neo-Ottoman aspirations. To this must be added the demographic and economic challenges that face oil monocultures in an adverse financial environment in the midst of a treacherous demographic transition.

That challenges conventional ways of assessing the options open to rational actors. Game theory considers the behavior of individuals with well-defined interests; it does not consider situations in which one or more of the players (for example) suffers from an inoperable brain tumor. Iran may decide that its existential interest require it to expand its Shi’ite empire now, before its rapid aging deprives it of manpower and financial resources. Saudi Arabia may decide that its ability to control its own restive population requires pre-emptive action against its Shia opponents. Turkey may decide that the threat of territorial amputation requires pre-emptive action against the Kurds.

30% solution here again?

To a great extent, all of this is happening now, through proxy wars: Saudi Arabia and Turkey are engaged in a proxy war with Iran in Syria and to some extent elsewhere in the region. Iranian Revolutionary Guard troops are heavily engaged in Syria, and Saudi Arabia has threatened to introduce its own troops in the country. The problem is that Iran, Saudi Arabia and Turkey all face fundamental economic and demographic challenges to internal stability that will get worse within a horizon of five to ten years.

American planners have sought to stabilize the region through proxies (supporting “moderate Islamists” in Syria against the Assad regime, encouraging the Iranians to join the regional security architecture, and so forth). Conditions for a perfect storm on the scale of past wars of exhaustion already prevail, and the likelihood of another war of exhaustion on the scale of the Napoleonic Wars or the Thirty Years War is much higher than foreign policy analysts seem to appreciate. The result may be the 30% solution we have seen so many times in history, and the appropriate American response may be not to extinguish the fire, but to maintain a controlled burn.
A perceptive and thoughtful article by Spengler. For a while, I have considered the Islamic world to be entering into something akin to the Thirty Years War, brought on by a existential crisis at the heart of Islam.

I fear Spengler is spot in, and in the coming decades we will see massive bloodshed across the Middle East and with huge waves of Muslim migrations trying to get into a relatively stable Europe. There is a very real danger that the EU, by letting these people, will bring upon itself its own instability and breakdown of civil disorder as a growing minority of its young men will be angry, poor and disposed young Muslim men, susceptible to the siren calls of radical Islam.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

biffvernon wrote:One knows when one has won the argument when one only gets personalised comments, abuse, ad hominems, strawmen and other logical fallacies.
I don't think I have been abusive. I disagree with your proposal to have total freedom of movement as it
a) Causes economic disruption for the poorer members of society
b) Then causes political disruption as people understandably respond negatively to the assault on themselves and their families.
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Post by biffvernon »

I just happen to be having a short holiday right now at that well know tourist destination, Sunderland, where I'm staying with an Iranian man who, not approving of the revolution, came to Britain and took British citizenship. We've jus been discussing the demographic phenomenon of the sudden drop in birth rate. He tells me that the present government, while a great improvement on the previous, is still a bit bonkers in parts. One of those parts is that it is now encouraging people to have more babies to boost the Shia/Sunni ratio in the world! My friend assures me the plan will fail since Iranian women are now very well educated and know the advantages of small families in which they can give their undivided attention, care and love to their one or two children, the demographic transition being unreversible.
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Post by clv101 »

UndercoverElephant wrote:This is the Long Descent, the Long Emergency, the Great Catastrophe. It isn't just theory anymore. It's happening. This is what it looks like: negative interest rates, President Donald Trump, the worst migration crisis since the end of WWII, the begining of the break-up/break-down of the EU, the rise of the far right...
This I agree with. What we are seeing now is just the tip of what's likely to become a far larger, more intractable problem this century. It's informative to note just how badly handled the response to just a few million people moving has been. I certainly think we'll be seeing, 10 or even 100 people on the move for every one we see today within the century.

The idea of a satisfactory outcome of the current situation, whilst technically (that's the easy bit) feasible seem politically, socially, economically impossible.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Lets not forget that the African population will explode from 1 billion to over 4 billion in this century... if you think the islamic migrations are big, wait for the mega-migrations of Africans in the decades to come.

http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... -challenge
In the past year the population of the African continent grew by 30 million. By the year 2050, annual increases will exceed 42 million people per year and total population will have doubled to 2.4 billion, according to the UN. This comes to 3.5 million more people per month, or 80 additional people per minute. At that point, African population growth would be able to re-fill an empty London five times a year.

From any big-picture perspective, these population dynamics will have an influence on global demography in the 21st century. Of the 2.37 billion increase in population expected worldwide by 2050, Africa alone will contribute 54%. By 2100, Africa will contribute 82% of total growth: 3.2 billion of the overall increase of 3.8 billion people. Under some projections, Nigeria will add more people to the world’s population by 2050 than any other country.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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clv101
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Post by clv101 »

I don't think we'll see Africa's population expand as the UN projects. Climate impacts will put a brake on. The vast majority of Africa is facing a perfect storm of: increased warm day temperature, increased area of flood hazard, increased number of days in drought, reduced water run-off, increased water demand for irrigation and decreased crop yield.

It's not as if Africa is a sustainable paradise today, but the situation will deteriorate markably in the coming decades.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

clv101 wrote: The idea of a satisfactory outcome of the current situation, whilst technically (that's the easy bit) feasible seem politically, socially, economically impossible.
Indeed. And as I've explained before, I found myself forced to accept this conclusion over 25 years ago, watching the world's response to the threat of climate change. It was just completely obvious that the politics/economics and societal factors were such that implementing the sort of solution needed to avoid a catastrophe was simply not going to happen. And it broke me. I ended up in a very poor state, mentally. Not least because it seemed like almost nobody else could see what was coming. But they can see it now. Or at least, many more people can, including just about everybody who regularly posts on this board, apart from one.
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Post by AutomaticEarth »

johnhemming2 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:One knows when one has won the argument when one only gets personalised comments, abuse, ad hominems, strawmen and other logical fallacies.
I don't think I have been abusive. I disagree with your proposal to have total freedom of movement as it
a) Causes economic disruption for the poorer members of society
b) Then causes political disruption as people understandably respond negatively to the assault on themselves and their families.
This is a solid post. I agree with all of this.
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Post by AutomaticEarth »

biffvernon wrote:One knows when one has won the argument when one only gets personalised comments, abuse, ad hominems, strawmen and other logical fallacies.
Biff, not sure what the above quote means. No-one has 'won' anything. I have a certain view of events, as you do too. I just think that a number of posters have a view that does not agree with yours. Nothing personal, just business.... 8)
Little John

Post by Little John »

Actually no...

Biff Vernon does not merely have a view on events. If it were merely that we would not be having this level of acrimony on here. He has a view on your personal moral inferiority to him because you do not shqre his moral agenda, even if your own view has a moral basis of its own. But, even that, if honestly conducted in debate as a position, would be at least consistent. What really boils some people's piss (including my own) is the complete hypocrisy of his position which he never addresses when it is put to him and, finally, his failure to address any other point put to him regarding his position.

In short, he employs underhand, disingenuous debating tactics worthy only of a politician whilst simultaneously implying that everyone else is morally inferior to him, All in a context of a set of views that are not based on any actual events, but on an unrealisable and, insofar as events on the ground are concerned, FAILED idealism.

Oh, and lest I forget, if all else fails he is not above a bit of trolling.
Last edited by Little John on 15 Mar 2016, 07:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by biffvernon »

AutomaticEarth wrote:I just think that a number of posters have a view that does not agree with yours.
No shit, Sherlock! :D

But history shows that the majority does not always have the best opinion.
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Post by jonny2mad »

biffvernon wrote:
AutomaticEarth wrote:I just think that a number of posters have a view that does not agree with yours.
No shit, Sherlock! :D

But history shows that the majority does not always have the best opinion.
Generally if you avoid discussion that shows that your likely to be wrong, you do that biff .

Your the only person who refuses to answer any question Ive asked you, and you have done that for years .
You also do the same thing with other peoples posts.

So lets see everyone else on the board thinks your wrong, and you avoid discussing vast areas or with certain people

:shock: :shock:

But yet you think your right
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:
AutomaticEarth wrote:I just think that a number of posters have a view that does not agree with yours.
No shit, Sherlock! :D

But history shows that the majority does not always have the best opinion.
In this case, history has already shown that your opinion is not "the best". It's not the best because it has resulted in the creation of a far bigger crisis than would have otherwise existed. It is not "the best" because the outcome is what all your critics warned you it would be, not what you predicted it would be.

Six months ago you had the excuse of ignorance - you could claim that you didn't know that an open door policy would prompt a huge increase in migration (although numerous people repeatedly warned you that this would be exactly the result).

You no longer have that excuse. It has now been proved by events that an open door policy simply encourages hundreds of thousands of extra people to migrate, which helps nobody. It doesn't help those extra (economic) migrants, some of whom will have lost everything only to end up in a squalid Greek camp, or being deported back to where they came from. And it doesn't help the people of Germany or Sweden, where there are serious integration problems and a growing right-wing backlash. Least of all does it help the genuine refugees, who are now paying a huge penalty for the bloody-minded stupidity of people like you, because they are now also trapped in Greece, whereas if it had not been for the bloody-minded stupidity they might have been in Germany by now.

I am sick of your ludicrous, preening, supposed-moral-superiority and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge you got this wrong when real world events have conclusively exposed flaws in your thinking that I and other people have been warning you about for years, during which time you continually implied we were motivated by selfishness.

You're a narcissist. If you actually cared about the people you say you want to help then you'd acknowledge the reality of what is happening and respond accordingly. Instead you just keep spouting the same utter tripe, like some sort of demented duracell bunny.
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

Geez guys.... we're going to have to change the name of the thread to 'Biff Watch' if you keep this up!

Let it go... Biff is absolutely not going to listen to anything anyone says if he doesn't already agree with it, no matter how sensible or logical, so he's effectively just winding you up.

You're all better than this; just ignore whatever he writes. It's working for me!
Automaton

Post by Automaton »

Looks like most of the migrants who broke into Macedonia have now been returned to Greece.

Let's hope that sends a clear signal down the line...
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