Are we on the brink of an electric car revolution?

[PS_RalphW]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... spur-sales

I'm surprised Germany doesn't provide subsidies for electric cars already . Most European countries do.

[clv101]

I'm not surprised. Every euro spent subsiding electric cars is a euro not spent subsiding low-carbon electricity generation, where it reduces more carbon per euro.

If the objective is decarbonisation, electric cars are bad value for money.

[johnhemming2]

What are the carbon costs of making an electric car?

[clv101]

What are the carbon costs of making an electric car?

To first order, prob similar to ICE car. Maybe a little more but offset over time by less/simpler servicing.

My main issue with electric cars is that it's much cheaper to decarbonise the grid than decarbonise transport and we should be taking the least cost approach to decarbonisation.

[vtsnowedin]

What are the carbon costs of making an electric car?

To first order, prob similar to ICE car. Maybe a little more but offset over time by less/simpler servicing.

My main issue with electric cars is that it's much cheaper to decarbonise the grid than decarbonise transport and we should be taking the least cost approach to decarbonisation.

What does your carbon free grid look like and what would the cost per KWH be all costs considered?

[biffvernon]

what would the cost per KWH be all costs considered?

Not sure how this translates into American, especially if you live near big hydro like Niagara, but the new windfarm near my house produces electricity for £60/MWhr. Off-shore wind is maybe 50% more expensive but costs are dropping as the industry grows.

[vtsnowedin]

what would the cost per KWH be all costs considered?

Not sure how this translates into American, especially if you live near big hydro like Niagara, but the new windfarm near my house produces electricity for £60/MWhr. Off-shore wind is maybe 50% more expensive but costs are dropping as the industry grows.

Well wind farms can only make up about 20 percent of your carbon free grid unless mass storage problems are solved due to the intermittent nature of wind. What does coal fired electricity wholesale for in the UK today? £10 to £15/ MWhr I'd guess from here.
I suppose you could get another 25 percent from PV panels but again you have intermittentcy issues and of no use at all in meeting any nighttime demand. So I don't see a carbon free grid that doesn't have a string of new nuclear plants on it to be available when other sources fail.
You'd have to plan out and cost all of that before you could estimate future carbon free bills.
Currently my power is all renewable but does contain a good chunk of methane from a landfill so is not carbon free. Converting to £ /MWhr costs me £ 137.66 retail with all taxes and line charges included.

[biffvernon]

So I don't see a carbon free grid that doesn't have a string of new nuclear plants on it

The sums have been done for Britain:
http://zerocarbonbritain.org/en/

[vtsnowedin]

So I don't see a carbon free grid that doesn't have a string of new nuclear plants on it

The sums have been done for Britain:
http://zerocarbonbritain.org/en/

The text would not load for some reason and the videos are long on optimism and short on numbers.
For stater numbers lets look at the present split.
Total annual consumption. 335,000,000 MW.h/tr 2014
Peak demand 57.5 GWh
Present breakdown by energy source.:
Nat. gas 30.29%
coal 29.1%
nuclear 19.0%
wind 9.4%
bio energy 6.8%
hydro 1.8%
solar 1.2%
So you see you need to replace 59.4% of your present fossil fuel fired plant with a carbon free source large enough to generate 200,000,000 MW.h/yr. That is a tall order that will involve one mega construction project or projects and I doubt you can even cut the permits in the allotted time.

[adam2]

So I don't see a carbon free grid that doesn't have a string of new nuclear plants on it

The sums have been done for Britain:
http://zerocarbonbritain.org/en/

The text would not load for some reason and the videos are long on optimism and short on numbers.
For stater numbers lets look at the present split.
Total annual consumption. 335,000,000 MW.h/tr 2014
Peak demand 57.5 GWh
Present breakdown by energy source.:
Nat. gas 30.29%
coal 29.1%
nuclear 19.0%
wind 9.4%
bio energy 6.8%
hydro 1.8%
solar 1.2%
So you see you need to replace 59.4% of your present fossil fuel fired plant with a carbon free source large enough to generate 200,000,000 MW.h/yr. That is a tall order that will involve one mega construction project or projects and I doubt you can even cut the permits in the allotted time.

I suspect that those figure might not be current, AFAIK coal is now less than 25% and the peak demand has fallen a bit.
Still indicative though of the scale of the problem. I cant realistically see electricity generation being decarbonised for some time yet.
However reducing the carbon intensity of electricity generation by reducing the FF used and increasing renewable generation is a useful first step.

[clv101]

What are the carbon costs of making an electric car?

To first order, prob similar to ICE car. Maybe a little more but offset over time by less/simpler servicing.

My main issue with electric cars is that it's much cheaper to decarbonise the grid than decarbonise transport and we should be taking the least cost approach to decarbonisation.

What does your carbon free grid look like and what would the cost per KWH be all costs considered?

Doesn't have to be zero carbon. My point is that it's currently a lot cheaper to mitigate a tonne of CO2 by decarbonising the grid than it is to decarbonise vehicle traffic. Every pound spent electrifying cars would save a lot more carbon if it were spent decarbonising the grid.

[vtsnowedin]

To first order, prob similar to ICE car. Maybe a little more but offset over time by less/simpler servicing.

My main issue with electric cars is that it's much cheaper to decarbonise the grid than decarbonise transport and we should be taking the least cost approach to decarbonisation.

What does your carbon free grid look like and what would the cost per KWH be all costs considered?

Doesn't have to be zero carbon. My point is that it's currently a lot cheaper to mitigate a tonne of CO2 by decarbonising the grid than it is to decarbonise vehicle traffic. Every pound spent electrifying cars would save a lot more carbon if it were spent decarbonising the grid.

I don't know how you know that for sure until you have decided how your going to decarbonise the grid or part of it. I suppose you could double the number of windmills and get wind up towards twenty percent without crashing the grid and balance those figures against the carbon footprint of ICE automobiles but that would increase demand and do nothing to replace the coal plants they have already agreed to close down without replacement power at the ready.

[biffvernon]

I don't know how you know that

Reading CAT's Zero Carbon Britain work is a good start.

[vtsnowedin]

I don't know how you know that

Reading CAT's Zero Carbon Britain work is a good start.

I don't happen to have that on the shelf here on the hill. Care to provide a link or pull out and post some of their numbers.
Oh never mind! I've picked through their web site and see they are just a self serving organization with the main goal of raising money for their administration. (Just like the NRA in the USA).
They will happily sell me a copy of their "Highly recommended report" for a mere £14.95 . Reading their pitch I keep expecting a voice to chime in with "Wait there is MORE! "Just pay separate shipping and handling and...."

[biffvernon]

've picked through their web site and see they are just a self serving organization with the main goal of raising money for their administration.

Nah, you couldn't be more wrong!

Try this pdf: http://zerocarbonbritain.com/images/pdf ... lo-res.pdf

198 pages for free!