Ethics: migration and self-preservation.

[UndercoverElephant]

Reading back at your last few posts UndercoverElephant I'm struck by your confidence. The reality is that you don't know how the next few decades are going to pan out. No one does. Your argument would be strengthened in my view if you were less absolutist and more open to the uncertainties in the future.

Your view of reality (other views are available!) strikes me as pessimistic. Now I expect you to think my 'pessimism' is your reality. But this strikes at the nub of the issue.

Yes. I don't think I'm being "pessimistic". Unfortunately I think certain things are now all too predictable. There are two main reasons for this. One is the current population level and age demographic, globally. The other is limitations placed by human psychology and available means of organisation on our ability to work together to find solutions to the biggest problems. In short, as things inevitably get tougher, our chance of finding solutions to those problems diminishes rather than improves. When the sh*t hits the fan, humans do not work together on a global scale to solve the underlying problems (e.g. climate change, competent and efficient global governance). Instead, they work together on much smaller scales in an attempt at self-preservation at the expense of other groups. This has been the pattern throughout human history, and I see no reason to believe anything different is going to happen now. The pattern is no accident either - it is a direct product of evolution. The humans who survived previous crises where not the "international socialist" types. They were the Jonny2Mad types.

There have been many occasions over the centuries where folk held extremely pessimistic views of the future; I expect the future looked pretty bleak as the Black Death took hold... as millions died in WW1, the early years of WW2, the Cold War, 70's energy shocks, the naughties peak oil fears etc... and yet the worst fears were not realised. Of course this time might be different, I'm certainly of the opinion that 'catastrophe is almost inevitable' but we must acknowledge that whilst we can't see it, there may be an acceptable path though this mass. Denying the possibility of it's existence, makes its discovery far less likely.

You can keep searching if you like. Personally I think it is a waste of effort that could be better directed elsewhere.

[kenneal - lagger]

Biff, if we spread the wealth across Africa most of that wealth would end up in Swiss bank accounts owned by the corrupt African leaders and their supporters. Very little, if anything, would actually end up in the pockets of those who need it.

You just have to look at the widespread poverty across nearly all African countries whether they have mineral wealth or not. The lot of the masses is they same all over.

Even leaders like Museveni in Uganda, who came to power as a breath of fresh air to that country, are now thought of tyrants who won't go until they die. I don't know whether Museveni is fleecing Uganda like Mugabe is fleecing Zimbabwe but the fact that he is still there are 36 years strongly suggests that he is enjoying the benefits of power!

It is the corruption of these leaders which is driving the people northwards to Europe in the hope of a better life. Should we invade and replace this corruption with our own, slightly less greedy, brand or should we just arrange a coup and hope that the successors are a little less greedy and corrupt? I don't suppose more than one of two contributors to these forums would agree with either of those suggestions so what are we left with? Accepting millions of economic migrants who are likely to riot when they are denied what they think of as their rights to a better life? Or do we shoot up the boats on the foreign shore from whence they are coming?

[biffvernon]

Biff, if we spread the wealth across Africa most of that wealth would end up in Swiss bank accounts owned by the corrupt African leaders and their supporters. Very little, if anything, would actually end up in the pockets of those who need it.

That is certainly the experience so far and there is no point in perpetuating such corruption. Switzerland and the rest of the global banking system have a deep responsibility in their connivance with criminals. If we are to have a fairer world and more equable wealth distribution there will have to be a complete revolution within the global banking system, which as currently set up serves mostly to concentrate wealth in the hands of the 0.1% Doubtless a few African leaders will be swept away in the revolution along with the European and American bankers.

[jonny2mad]

I agree about the hopelessness of a rise of right wing, short-termist politics. Which is why it is so desperately important for the Left to wake up and face up to the hard realities of what has already started. If it does not, then the future is being handed to the far right on a plate and they will definitely **** it up

The left will never wake up . people will pick sides the left in europe has picked its side I would imagine a lot of leftists will be the first to convert to islam .

[Catweazle]

Our task is to make global wealth equal enough to stop mass migration (and cut birth rates), reduce global resource consumption to planetary sustainable levels, while protecting the quality of life of those who are currently rich and consume at unsustainable levels.

Are you saying you really believe this is something that could be achieved Biff?

Did I say that? Nope.

If you stick to what is possible perhaps the stupid abuse campaign will stop and this site will regain some credibility.

[biffvernon]

Reaching Utopia may be impossible but that doesn't make it impossible to travel a long way down that road.

[UndercoverElephant]

Reaching Utopia may be impossible but that doesn't make it impossible to travel a long way down that road.

Possibly, but you are still ignoring the real issues. The question is not whether or not it is possible to travel a certain distance in the direction of an unachievable utopia. Clearly it is. The question is what are the real-world consequences of doing so?

And you have a clear example of these sorts of consequences, which you are steadfastly ignoring. The German policy of opening their borders to any refugees who could make it to Germany was just a step towards an unachievable utopia. The intention was to relieve the suffering of refugees from war zones and show that Europe had a conscience. But the real world result was to cause a ten-fold increase (and more) in the number of economic migrants heading towards Europe. This was unsustainable - it made the migration problem worse instead of relieving it, fuelled the rise of the far right and ultimately led to the genuine refugees ending up trapped in squalid camps in Greece, along with hundreds of thousands of economic migrants who would have been better off staying in their homeland.

It is no use trying to travel part way down the path to an unattainable Utopia if the real-world result is to make the world a worse place instead of a better place. The reason you are the target of such unrelenting criticism is that you point blank accept to refuse to acknowledge those real-world consequences, even after they have happened and are historic facts rather than theoretical predictions.

I will ask you again. Will you PLEASE start being realistic. Not about what a utopian world might look like, but about what the real-world consequences of real-world actions.

This stuff matters. You believe you are helping. What you are actually doing is destroying the environmental movement, by rendering it a joke and forcing the realists within that movement to waste their time and effort dealing with your nonsense instead of attacking what should be the real enemy.

[vtsnowedin]

I agree about the hopelessness of a rise of right wing, short-termist politics. Which is why it is so desperately important for the Left to wake up and face up to the hard realities of what has already started. If it does not, then the future is being handed to the far right on a plate and they will definitely **** it up

The left will never wake up . people will pick sides the left in europe has picked its side I would imagine a lot of leftists will be the first to convert to islam .

Don't be so pessimistic. A lot of liberal and left when faced with this reality that won't go away will become conservative and rightest and sense they start on the far left will end up in the center.
They will have to stop thinking with their heart and start thinking with their brain.

[jonny2mad]

I don't see them doing that, what they do is drift along hoping that the left in general will see sense, it wont because the people who control the left are in bed with islamists .

if you have a anti islam march its leftists who oppose it, and they will do that while islam grows in the uk and europe. at the moment they have the bigger numbers on the streets but in the future they will be the junior partner they already are the junior partner ideology wise .

Anyway I am sure they will largely shift from being leftists to being islamists

[vtsnowedin]

I don't see them doing that, what they do is drift along hoping that the left in general will see sense, it wont because the people who control the left are in bed with islamists .

if you have a anti islam march its leftists who oppose it, and they will do that while islam grows in the uk and europe. at the moment they have the bigger numbers on the streets but in the future they will be the junior partner they already are the junior partner ideology wise .

Anyway I am sure they will largely shift from being leftists to being islamists

Do you really think your leftist are that stupid?

[AutomaticEarth]

I don't see them doing that, what they do is drift along hoping that the left in general will see sense, it wont because the people who control the left are in bed with islamists .

if you have a anti islam march its leftists who oppose it, and they will do that while islam grows in the uk and europe. at the moment they have the bigger numbers on the streets but in the future they will be the junior partner they already are the junior partner ideology wise .

Anyway I am sure they will largely shift from being leftists to being islamists

Do you really think your leftist are that stupid?

Unfortunately, yes

[kenneal - lagger]

...
Do you really think your leftist are that stupid?

Haven't you been reading some of their quotes and contributions here? Naming no names so as not to start another controversy!

[Little John]

I'm a leftist

[UndercoverElephant]

As am I.

"Leftists" should not be confused with "woolly-minded middle class liberals", even if they overlap in places.

[AutomaticEarth]

As am I.

"Leftists" should not be confused with "woolly-minded middle class liberals", even if they overlap in places.

I should have qualified my post with some disclaimers as per your and Little John's post above. Sorry