EU membership referendum debate thread

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 21 Feb 2016, 10:06

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Are you up for that?
Yes.

But it stops at the first instance of impolite, rude, personally abusive or otherwise offensive language. The normal rules of netiquette that apply pretty generally these days must be stuck to.

I have read your last couple of posts. But, quite honestly, I only have a certain amount of time I'm willing to devote to PowerSwitch and I probably read less than 20% of all the posts here from anybody and skim quickly over anything longer than a short paragraph unless it is something that really interests me.

So don't expect too much, please.

If you'd like to start a new thread as you suggest, I'll have something to say about what has been described as the logical fallacy of the hypocrite, as I think it may be fundamental to the issue.

OK. I am quite busy right now and it needs to be considered carefully. I'll start it in the next day or two.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 21 Feb 2016, 14:53

Looks like Bojo is going for Brexit:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35625037

What do you lot think?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 21 Feb 2016, 14:57

I Don't care what Boris thinks.

I don't like the way the eu works. However, I don't think we will improve on the things I am concerned about (subsidised migration) by leaving.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 21 Feb 2016, 15:28

johnhemming2 wrote:I Don't care what Boris thinks.

I don't like the way the eu works. However, I don't think we will improve on the things I am concerned about (subsidised migration) by leaving.

Confirmed - Boris is backing the Leave campaign :-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-35626621

fuzzy · Post by **fuzzy** » 21 Feb 2016, 16:23

johnhemming2 wrote:I Don't care what Boris thinks.

I don't like the way the eu works. However, I don't think we will improve on the things I am concerned about (subsidised migration) by leaving.

Agreed, in fact when you see the dangerous people campaigning to leave - IDS, Boris, Gove etc it makes you wonder if they are there to scare people the other way.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 21 Feb 2016, 21:20

This is what I have been able to get hold of so far:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... /poll.html

MIGRATION AND BENEFITS
A watered-down emergency brake will limit migrants' access to benefits for four years immediately after the referendum. Rather than a total ban, access to in-work benefits will be "graduated from an initial complete exclusion but gradually increasing"
Migrants will still be able to send benefits to their children abroad, just in lower amounts than they currently do
Mr Cameron will be given new powers to stop suspected terrorists and criminals coming to the UK, not only if a threat is "imminent"
New rules will stop people coming to the UK via "sham marriages". They will prevent non-EU citizens marrying an EU citizen to then live and work in Britain

On this, I do not wish to see a fall in the amount or type of social security/health benefits newly arrived migrant get. That is a disgusting prospect that only a Tory would think might appeal. I think they should get exactly the same as any other citizen. The problem, that this "solution" completely fails to address is the number of migrants coming here in the first place.

SOVEREIGNTY
The letter recognises that the UK "is not committed to further political integration into the European Union"
A "red card" system will allow the House of Commons to band together with like-minded EU parliaments and block unwanted Brussels legislation

I have found no details anywhere, as yet, of what a so-called "red-card" means, if it means anything significant at all. Which I doubt since, if it did, details of what exactly it meant would not have proved so hard to find, at least so far.

ECONOMIC GOVERNANCE
The deal protects the pound by recognising in law - for the first time - that the EU has more than one currency
British taxpayers' money can never be liable to support the eurozone
Any issues which affect all member states must be discussed by all member states - not just countries in the eurozone

We already know we have the pound and that, for the most part, this has already protected us from the fate of many other EU countries tied to the Euro. We don't need the Europeans top pass a law to tell us this. So far as being able to "discuss" factors that affect all EU states, this does not necessarily mean the same thing as having actual levers to change decisions, unless it is specifically stated. It is not specifically stated. So we may assume, unless it is stated, that no such levers would exist any more than they already do.

COMPETITIVENESS
The EU will increase efforts to cut bureaucracy, especially on small and medium enterprises, which the Government has said damages UK businesses

This is just waffle

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 21 Feb 2016, 21:41

The point about benefits (tax credits) is that they would not come here to sell the big issue if they didn't get a lot of government money.

The red card is from the European scrutiny committee and allows national parliaments collectively to block change.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 21 Feb 2016, 22:18

johnhemming2 wrote:The point about benefits (tax credits) is that they would not come here to sell the big issue if they didn't get a lot of government money.

The red card is from the European scrutiny committee and allows national parliaments collectively to block change.

So, you think the major issue facing the UK, at this present time, is who exactly gets to sell the "Big Issue"?

What exactly is meant by "collectively"?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 22 Feb 2016, 07:36

Little John wrote:So, you think the major issue facing the UK, at this present time, is who exactly gets to sell the "Big Issue"?

I cite this as an obvious example. In fact almost all of the low paid migration is encouraged by the provision of in work benefits which is I think over a million people. The Big Issue is AFAIK only 5,000 people (and their families). However, it is blatantly obvious that people should not be being encouraged to come here to sell the Big Issue.

Little John wrote: What exactly is meant by "collectively"?

I think it is 55% of parliaments by population. However, that obviously can change.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 22 Feb 2016, 19:09

I back Brexit.

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 22 Feb 2016, 22:06

Lord Beria3 wrote:I back Brexit.

Me too.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 22 Feb 2016, 22:11

I back Brexit.. But not because of anything Cameron has done (or claims to have). I back it irrespective of the bastard and all the bastards he represents. We of a socilaists persuasion may or may not have electoral difficulties in the UK if Scotland throws its dummy out of the pram and flounces off to independently join the EU (or tries to). but, somehow, I doubt that will happen. I also further doubt that the current proportion of English that vote Tory will necessarily continue to do so. In other words, I believe in my country,.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 22 Feb 2016, 22:50

Wise council:
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/ ... titutions/

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 23 Feb 2016, 00:07

Why bother staying in the EU to fight its anti-democratic institutions when we can leave the EU and rid ourselves of them completely?

I sincerely hope the answer is not "because it would be in the best interests of non-British people for us to do this, regardless of the fact it is not in the interests of the people of the UK".

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 28 Feb 2016, 00:52

A young girl who seems to be using her brain:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... panel.html

Good to see some young people who are starting to 'get it' for a change