Trump, Sanders, Leicester City FC...
Moderator: Peak Moderation
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Snail
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Snail
Interesting that on the local news tonight, a poll found that in Annan(small town in scotland) most would stay in Europe, while in Longtown (similar small town in England a few miles away), most would vote to leave. And unlike the Scottish Independence debate, older people are more likely to leave and younger more likely to stay. Emotional decision making, eh?
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Automaton
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Automaton
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Lord Beria3
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Interesting that most folks here aren't prepared to accept that some of Trump's policy positions would economically benefit working class American.
Building wall would stop illegal migration into America (which drives down wages for low skill jobs).
The deportation of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions, of illegal migrants doing low skilled and poorly paid jobs in America would clearly tighten the labor market and increase wages for blue-collar legal American workers for those same jobs.
The imposition of tariffs against Chinese produced imports would tilt the scales to making US based manufacturing more economically viable - directly creating millions of skilled manufacturing jobs which would benefit working Americans.
I don't hear such policies from the Democratic Party, which is supposed to represent the class and economic interests of working class and lower-middle class Americans. For years, elite Euro's have wondered why working class Americans vote for the Republicans... well now that the Republicans have inadvertently allowed a candidate to emerge who champions economically populist policies that would benefit working Americans, they are 'emotional' and not thinking when they support Trump!!
Building wall would stop illegal migration into America (which drives down wages for low skill jobs).
The deportation of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions, of illegal migrants doing low skilled and poorly paid jobs in America would clearly tighten the labor market and increase wages for blue-collar legal American workers for those same jobs.
The imposition of tariffs against Chinese produced imports would tilt the scales to making US based manufacturing more economically viable - directly creating millions of skilled manufacturing jobs which would benefit working Americans.
I don't hear such policies from the Democratic Party, which is supposed to represent the class and economic interests of working class and lower-middle class Americans. For years, elite Euro's have wondered why working class Americans vote for the Republicans... well now that the Republicans have inadvertently allowed a candidate to emerge who champions economically populist policies that would benefit working Americans, they are 'emotional' and not thinking when they support Trump!!
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Little John
It doesn't matter what mainstream party is in government in the USA. It's all neo-con capitalism. So, your comparison between Trump and the Democrats is specious. Save, perhaps, that he will be an even more rabid neo-con than most existing Republicans. In terms of his statements on immigration, he is merely exploiting the fear in the general public about their deteriorating standard of living and it is certainly the case that unfettered immigration in the absence of any kind of liveable pay policy wont help that and will drive wages to the lowest legally possible (7.25 dollars per hour). But, the primary reason for the hard life of ordinary Americans are neo-con capitalists like Trump.Lord Beria3 wrote:Interesting that most folks here aren't prepared to accept that some of Trump's policy positions would economically benefit working class American.
Building wall would stop illegal migration into America (which drives down wages for low skill jobs).
The deportation of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions, of illegal migrants doing low skilled and poorly paid jobs in America would clearly tighten the labor market and increase wages for blue-collar legal American workers for those same jobs.
The imposition of tariffs against Chinese produced imports would tilt the scales to making US based manufacturing more economically viable - directly creating millions of skilled manufacturing jobs which would benefit working Americans.
I don't hear such policies from the Democratic Party, which is supposed to represent the class and economic interests of working class and lower-middle class Americans. For years, elite Euro's have wondered why working class Americans vote for the Republicans... well now that the Republicans have inadvertently allowed a candidate to emerge who champions economically populist policies that would benefit working Americans, they are 'emotional' and not thinking when they support Trump!!
Last edited by Little John on 18 Feb 2016, 18:12, edited 3 times in total.
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Lord Beria3
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A different vein of argument is that trump is an opportunist and would never enact such policies if he came to power.
He certainly is intelligent enough to have analysed and moved into this gaping political vacuum of economic populism with a hawkish approach to domestic security, yet the real argument is surely he deserves a chance to enact these policies into action? And if Trump is elected on a change mandate, he will very quickly become a lame duck president if he refuses to take on Wall Street and the Washington establishment and try to enact on what he promised his voters and supporters he would do.
My gut instinct is that if Trump got in, he would double and triple down to get his agenda through - and yes, it could get very nasty. Trump would be taking on some of the ruthless factions of Wall Street and the military-industrial complex (the same forces which would eat Sanders alive within the first minutes of him moving into the White House) and all bets would be off. Trump would be prepared to go extra-constitutional to break the Wall Street controlled Congress which is wholly owned by financial special interests by going straight to the people.
Even leftists here will be cheering a populist Trump taking on Wall Street, if it ever happens.
He certainly is intelligent enough to have analysed and moved into this gaping political vacuum of economic populism with a hawkish approach to domestic security, yet the real argument is surely he deserves a chance to enact these policies into action? And if Trump is elected on a change mandate, he will very quickly become a lame duck president if he refuses to take on Wall Street and the Washington establishment and try to enact on what he promised his voters and supporters he would do.
My gut instinct is that if Trump got in, he would double and triple down to get his agenda through - and yes, it could get very nasty. Trump would be taking on some of the ruthless factions of Wall Street and the military-industrial complex (the same forces which would eat Sanders alive within the first minutes of him moving into the White House) and all bets would be off. Trump would be prepared to go extra-constitutional to break the Wall Street controlled Congress which is wholly owned by financial special interests by going straight to the people.
Even leftists here will be cheering a populist Trump taking on Wall Street, if it ever happens.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Little John
Trump take on wall Street?.......Lord Beria3 wrote:A different vein of argument is that trump is an opportunist and would never enact such policies if he came to power.
He certainly is intelligent enough to have analysed and moved into this gaping political vacuum of economic populism with a hawkish approach to domestic security, yet the real argument is surely he deserves a chance to enact these policies into action? And if Trump is elected on a change mandate, he will very quickly become a lame duck president if he refuses to take on Wall Street and the Washington establishment and try to enact on what he promised his voters and supporters he would do.
My gut instinct is that if Trump got in, he would double and triple down to get his agenda through - and yes, it could get very nasty. Trump would be taking on some of the ruthless factions of Wall Street and the military-industrial complex (the same forces which would eat Sanders alive within the first minutes of him moving into the White House) and all bets would be off. Trump would be prepared to go extra-constitutional to break the Wall Street controlled Congress which is wholly owned by financial special interests by going straight to the people.
Even leftists here will be cheering a populist Trump taking on Wall Street, if it ever happens.
Jesus wept...
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Lord Beria3
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http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/15/news/ec ... ll-street/
As outlined in the above article, trump is loathed by wall street as a class traitor who is unpredictable and whose policies to date would go against their interests.
As outlined in the above article, trump is loathed by wall street as a class traitor who is unpredictable and whose policies to date would go against their interests.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Little John
Trump's belief (assuming he actually believes his own bullshit) in unfettered free markets is a delusion. There is no such thing nor can there be due to systemic asymmetries that develop in any market place. In other words, a free market lasts for about the first five minutes of a market coming into existence. Once a given player, for any number of reasons, develops a lead on other players then it is inevitable that, in the absence of regulations to curtail their activities, they will systemically consolidate that lead such that other players can never catch them up. At which point, the fabled free market is dead.
Trump's delusion (or deliberately constructed bullshit) is that by breaking the dominance of certain Wall Street Cartels, he is going to usher in some kind of nirvana of an Ayn Randian free market. In the absence of appropriate market regulations those cartels will be replaced in short order with other ones. Probably with the name "Trump" on their doors, I dare say.
Thus, the only real choice that remains, given that any market is inevitably either going to be constrained by systemic asymmetries or is going to be constrained by systemic regulations designed to limit those asymmetries, is whose side are you on?
Trump is not on the side of the average working class American. In other words, he's not on the side of the vast majority of Americans.
Trump's delusion (or deliberately constructed bullshit) is that by breaking the dominance of certain Wall Street Cartels, he is going to usher in some kind of nirvana of an Ayn Randian free market. In the absence of appropriate market regulations those cartels will be replaced in short order with other ones. Probably with the name "Trump" on their doors, I dare say.
Thus, the only real choice that remains, given that any market is inevitably either going to be constrained by systemic asymmetries or is going to be constrained by systemic regulations designed to limit those asymmetries, is whose side are you on?
Trump is not on the side of the average working class American. In other words, he's not on the side of the vast majority of Americans.
Trump is not perfect but he is moving things in the right direction. hes buying americans some time .
europe is commiting suicide as we slide towards either islam or civil war maybe americans can wake up .
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/18/polit ... index.html
The popes against trump because building walls isn't christian apparently.
europe is commiting suicide as we slide towards either islam or civil war maybe americans can wake up .
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/18/polit ... index.html
The popes against trump because building walls isn't christian apparently.
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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AutomaticEarth
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jonny2mad wrote:Trump is not perfect but he is moving things in the right direction. hes buying americans some time .
europe is commiting suicide as we slide towards either islam or civil war maybe americans can wake up .
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/18/polit ... index.html
The popes against trump because building walls isn't christian apparently.
"If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS's ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president," Trump added
I missed that and Trumps right-
Lord Beria3
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... populists/
Trump represents a right-wing populism (not the ideal backlash expected or desired by the Left), yet, it is a backlash against the elite and yes, it could lead to real change if Trump became president.
One also has to put this into a bigger perspective, the Limited to Growth BAU model, which predicts the peak in global per capita in 2015, with a very sharp decline going forward. What does that mean? Most Americans will get poorer/stagnate in terms of real wages and they will want revenge against the rich elite.
At the moment, assuming that Sanders fails to get the Democratic leadership, only Trump fills that political vacuum. Clinton is a paid stooge of the Wall Street elite and the American public know it.
Well, the Wall Street 'cartels' are certainly worried.Wall Street’s wealthy donors didn’t see the Donald Trump’s populist wave coming — and they’re “terrified,” according to Politico.
“I don’t know anyone who is a Donald Trump supporter [and] I don’t know anyone who knows anyone who is a Donald Trump supporter,” said the CEO of one large Wall Street firm.
“They are like this huge mystery group… So it’s a combination of shock and bewilderment. No one really knows why this is happening… Right now people think Trump is pretty hilarious but the longer it goes on the more frightening it gets,” the CEO said.
Trump represents a right-wing populism (not the ideal backlash expected or desired by the Left), yet, it is a backlash against the elite and yes, it could lead to real change if Trump became president.
One also has to put this into a bigger perspective, the Limited to Growth BAU model, which predicts the peak in global per capita in 2015, with a very sharp decline going forward. What does that mean? Most Americans will get poorer/stagnate in terms of real wages and they will want revenge against the rich elite.
At the moment, assuming that Sanders fails to get the Democratic leadership, only Trump fills that political vacuum. Clinton is a paid stooge of the Wall Street elite and the American public know it.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Little John
Oh, I don't disagree that Trump (or someone like him at some point) is the likely future of Western nations). But, this is not because of a failure the Left in mainstream politics. It, is a failure of mainstream limp-minded liberals who, while hanging onto the fluffy cultural aspects of some parts of left philosophy, are nevertheless fully committed advocates to BAU neo-con capitalism. They only appear to be of the Left because of the massive shift to the right over the least several decades. Full-blooded leftism's real failure is allowing the liberals to co-opt and corrupt their political language.
Faced with a choice between a weak, psudo-left-liberalism which shafts you no less than the more unashamed capitalists, all the while wringing its hands and telling you it feels your pain, and a full-blooded, unapologetic capitalism, many people in America are likely to choose the full-blooded capitalism when times are bad and the democrats when times are good. When times are really bad, as they are now for many Americans, they are likely to swing even further to the right than they already are. Hence Trump.
It all comes down to cultural and political history.
One way or another, this unfolding long emergency is going to cause the West to turn fascist or socialist and I know which side I am on. I am, however, not hopeful. The reason is because the real rulers, the people you don't get to see, are quite capable of working with a fascistic body politic. They can never, however, work with socialists, since socialism's stated aim is to destroy their power.
Faced with a choice between a weak, psudo-left-liberalism which shafts you no less than the more unashamed capitalists, all the while wringing its hands and telling you it feels your pain, and a full-blooded, unapologetic capitalism, many people in America are likely to choose the full-blooded capitalism when times are bad and the democrats when times are good. When times are really bad, as they are now for many Americans, they are likely to swing even further to the right than they already are. Hence Trump.
It all comes down to cultural and political history.
One way or another, this unfolding long emergency is going to cause the West to turn fascist or socialist and I know which side I am on. I am, however, not hopeful. The reason is because the real rulers, the people you don't get to see, are quite capable of working with a fascistic body politic. They can never, however, work with socialists, since socialism's stated aim is to destroy their power.