Petition for vote of no confidence in Jeremy *unt

[johnhemming2]

The government has behaved aggressively, but the doctors have failed to admit their dispute is really about pay.

[Little John]

The government has behaved aggressively, but the doctors have failed to admit their dispute is really about pay.

That's right..keep pushing this government's lies about it being about pay, despite the fact that the BMA and junior doctors have consistently pointed out, with evidence, about how it is about the same amount of resource being spread ever thinner over seven days instead of five.

You are no more than a pathetic f***ing establishment shill and everyone on her can see that,

[johnhemming2]

Try reading the Observer/Guardian article that I linked to:

Since then, the government has made significant concessions and there appear to be two remaining significant points of contention. The first is whether new legal limits on working hours go far enough. The BMA said that, without the punitive fines of the old system, junior doctors would be vulnerable to exploitation. The government has therefore proposed that NHS trusts breaching the limit would have to pay fines four times the cost of the excess hours worked. The disagreement appears to be over what proportion of those fines should go to the junior doctor. The government’s current position is half, but it says it has been unable to reach agreement with the BMA over this.

This implies that the dispute is about remuneration rather than safety: given that the point of the fines is prevention, the overall level is much more important from a safety perspective. The government has also agreed to introduce further protections to prevent unsafe working: reducing the number of night shifts doctors can be asked to work in a row, and guaranteeing no doctor would be rostered to work consecutive weekends.

The second is the extent to which Saturday working attracts an uplift. The government wants a higher rate of basic pay that includes Saturdays, the BMA a lower rate of basic pay with a Saturday uplift. Again, the government has offered significant concessions: an uplift for working on Saturday evenings, with doctors who work at least one weekend in four – which more than half do – getting the uplift for all their Saturday hours.

I haven't myself studied the issue in sufficient detail to work out the truth of the matter.

The BMA make a valid point that overtired doctors are bad for patients.

[johnhemming2]

What do the BMA say:
http://www.bma.org.uk/working-for-chang ... tions-home

We have been consistently clear that junior doctors must be treated equally, and the work they do must be fairly recognised. Our alternative, cost-neutral proposal, which has been put to the Government, would ensure that this is the case for any junior doctor working on a Saturday.

In other words they are not arguing for more resources (or so they say).

http://www.bma.org.uk/~/asset/4/13915.ashx

http://www.bma.org.uk/~/asset/4/13924.ashx

[biffvernon]

As you can see from some of the source materials trainee doctors earn less than MPs, but experienced doctors earn a lot more than MPs.

I personally agree that experienced doctors should earn more than MPs.

In other careers people on training contracts don't necessarily get paid that much. Barristers, for example, get the national minimum wage.

The Foundation year is a 2 year training process
http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/p ... pub-scheme

F1 follows five years training! Even Scale 9, the top scale reachable a few years on, at £47k is still well short of an MP's £74k

How much do you earn, John? I maxed at just over £30k before I retired from teaching a few years ago.

I dare say doctors get fewer perks.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gr ... es-7364113

Grasping MPs enjoyed nearly £800,000 in freebies over the last year – despite a huge salary increase to £74,000.

And as they prepare to trouser another £1,000 on their annual pay, a Sunday Mirror investigation can reveal that many are enjoying wining, dining and jet-setting beyond the wildest dreams of most of their constituents.

[johnhemming2]

F1 follows five years training! Even Scale 9, the top scale reachable a few years on, at £47k is still well short of an MP's £74k

How much do you earn, John? I maxed at just over £30k before I retired from teaching a few years ago.

The documents I have linked to and quoted from indicate that Junior Doctors get substantially more money from bonuses etc which is what the debate is about.

Barristers will have done potentially 5 years training before they start pupillage (or a training contract).

My personal income varies a lot, but was quoted when I was an MP with about 200K of earnings outside parliament. (plus the parliamentary salary).

[fuzzy]

The BMA make a valid point that overtired doctors are bad for patients.

If you think that any professional lobby organisation is concerned about anyone other than their own cronies, you are gullible. If doctors are overtired, the BMA could replace the glorified social workers called GPs with a prescribing database, make 2/3 drugs patient self-prescribing [with computer records of medication obviously], and send 1000s of GPs to hospitals to do some real medical work helping their 'overworked' colleagues with the residual medical issues.

[johnhemming2]

The BMA make a valid point that overtired doctors are bad for patients.

If you think that any professional lobby organisation is concerned about anyone other than their own cronies, you are gullible. If doctors are overtired, the BMA could replace the glorified social workers called GPs with a prescribing database, make 2/3 drugs patient self-prescribing [with computer records of medication obviously], and send 1000s of GPs to hospitals to do some real medical work helping their 'overworked' colleagues with the residual medical issues.

That is unfair about the BMA. Their priority, of course, is their own members. They may even exaggerate things for their own purpose, but they are not unconcerned about patients.

[biffvernon]

The documents I have linked to and quoted from indicate that Junior Doctors get substantially more money from bonuses etc which is what the debate is about.

My son, who is a junior doctor, does not. I gather his position is typical.

My personal income varies a lot, but was quoted when I was an MP with about 200K of earnings outside parliament. (plus the parliamentary salary).

[johnhemming2]

My son, who is a junior doctor, does not. I gather his position is typical.

We are, of course, talking about the current situation at the moment anyway.

I don't know enough about who is paid what. All I can rely on is the websites as referred to above.

It, however, does matter that we look at the wider position as well as individual cases.

In the end I don't know enough to decided whether the government is right or not. Obviously there should be a penalty payment when hospitals put too much time pressure on doctors. Also it is a good idea that the doctors themselves are rewarded for that.

However, the details are complex and I don't know enough to say whether I support the BMA or the Government on this issue.

[vtsnowedin]

I suppose all this is something I can look forward to as the USA belatedly follows the UK into government provided universal health care.
I expect that when I really need it I'll get told that "Under the new improved system" I'll not qualify for whatever treatment I would have been entitled too (and been paying for) all these years when I was too young to need it.

[madibe]

johnhemming2 wrote:

My personal income varies a lot, but was quoted when I was an MP with about 200K of earnings outside parliament. (plus the parliamentary salary).

Wow - I always thought that being an MP was a full time job? So, your extra curricular activities must have been highly efficient money generators.

I don't suppose (pretty please), that you could share your knowledge or technique - because I would really love to raise my income above the £29k that I get as a technical specialist working in higher education.

Thanks for your help

[johnhemming2]

johnhemming2 wrote:

My personal income varies a lot, but was quoted when I was an MP with about 200K of earnings outside parliament. (plus the parliamentary salary).

Wow - I always thought that being an MP was a full time job? So, your extra curricular activities must have been highly efficient money generators.

I don't suppose (pretty please), that you could share your knowledge or technique - because I would really love to raise my income above the £29k that I get as a technical specialist working in higher education.

Thanks for your help

The declaration of interest also had the number of hours - 4 per month. I was a full time MP.

[biffvernon]

That the system allows so much transfer of wealth for so little work done is at the root of the evil that is capitalism.

[UndercoverElephant]

282,000 and counting...