Die-off

[vtsnowedin]

Most of the land not now being tilled is not suitable for one reason or another (slope, arid, thin soil etc.) and would be a waste of effort if pressed into service)

Agreed but I don't think that would stop it being tried. The soils in the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS are generally very poor but that hasn't stopped the rainforest being cleared.
My point is more that people will expect a technological fix rather than face the obvious answer.

Yes you are right about them trying it.

[kenneal - lagger]

The technological fix for DODGY TAX AVOIDERS soils is well known already and was developed over 1000 years ago! It's called Terra Preta and involves incorporating charcoal into the soil. It's one possibility for improving soils wordwide and would reduce the requirement for nitrogen based fertilizers by a huge amount.

It could also be used to reduce atmospheric carbon and produce a small amount of biodiesel at the same time. It seems to be such a good idea that no company is taking it on. Probably because it involves using less of a very profitable commercial product and can be manufactured on a farm scale rather than on a corporate one. It's sad about our economic system, really!

[johnhemming2]

It's sad about our economic system, really!

Our economic system does allow you to do this, however.

[Lurkalot]

The technological fix for DODGY TAX AVOIDERS soils is well known already and was developed over 1000 years ago! It's called Terra Preta and involves incorporating charcoal into the soil. It's one possibility for improving soils wordwide and would reduce the requirement for nitrogen based fertilizers by a huge amount.

It could also be used to reduce atmospheric carbon and produce a small amount of biodiesel at the same time. It seems to be such a good idea that no company is taking it on. Probably because it involves using less of a very profitable commercial product and can be manufactured on a farm scale rather than on a corporate one. It's sad about our economic system, really!

Yes I was aware of the terra preta or black soils , small areas of very good , fertile land but chose the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS as an example because it's more common in that region to clear it and add artificial fertilisers. From what I understand the black soils contain not only charcoal but also what is termed " all the villages organic waste" so human waste really which always seems a resource that is under exploited in my opinion . Some at least think we should do something with it rather than just flushing it away http://humanurehandbook.com

[kenneal - lagger]

The important bit is the charcoal because it absorbs nutrients and stops them being flushed away by the intense tropical rain. The intense rain is the reason why the DODGY TAX AVOIDERS soils have limited fertility and soon lose what fertility they hold once the forest cover is removed. The charcoal actually sieves the nutrients out of the rain water as it flows through the soil and it is only mycorrhizal fungi that can extract them again to make them available to plants.

The use of humanure is, however, very important worldwide. We humans are very inefficient at extracting nutrients from our food and our manure is a good source of them for the plants which we grow. We need to stop industry using sewage plants as a treatment system for their dirty wastes so that sewage sludge can be used universally and not be limited in quantity of application. Many sewage works in the UK can only put a limited amount of sludge onto soil as it overloads the soils with contaminants, often heavy metals. Industry should tidy up its own mess, including carbon dioxide emissions. Making small payments to water companies to put stuff down the drain isn't good enough.

[Lurkalot]

Sorry for the lapse in replying I really should visit a bit more often.
I'm not going to deny that ken's post is anything but correct and factual but the response does tend to consolidate my belief that the or any die off is immanent . Faced with the problem of losing good arable land through whatever factor and along comes "one of the intelligent people" to give us an answer , charcoal and human waste on poor soils . I'm not trying to criticise ken personally as the idea of there being an answer to pretty much anything , for example fusion for boundless energy or other ideas to support even more of us simply result in the "less intelligent "of us carrying on breeding , not even trying to stem population growth safe in the belief that technology and science will save us all.

[emordnilap]

From what I understand the black soils contain not only charcoal but also what is termed " all the villages organic waste" so human waste really which always seems a resource that is under exploited in my opinion . Some at least think we should do something with it rather than just flushing it away http://humanurehandbook.com

Yes. RC, Pippa and I and others have banged on about this at various intervals. Not sure about RC but this house put it into practice years ago as a simple, cheap, perfectly safe and remarkably satisfying solution. Joseph Jenkins's book should be on every school curriculum and in every house.

Regarding Ken's post, properly composting human shot with other materials (thermophilic composting) deals with virtually all industrial contaminants (granted these should not exist in the first place).

[RenewableCandy]

Regarding people who think there's an answer to everything.

There are 2 types of these answers:

Ones that, like humanure, wind energy etc, are good-to-go and just need implemented, and ones, otoh, like Fusion, which can't be built in practice.

[kenneal - lagger]

.... properly composting human shot with other materials (thermophilic composting) deals with virtually all industrial contaminants (granted these should not exist in the first place).

Heavy metals? I'm not sure that that does happen it that case. Heavy metals certainly go straight through the digesters at the sewage works.

I agree with Candy that low tech solutions generally work but big corporations don't generally make a heap of money from them whereas big corporations can make a heap of money from research into high tech "solutions" even when they don't work.

[emordnilap]

.... properly composting human shot with other materials (thermophilic composting) deals with virtually all industrial contaminants (granted these should not exist in the first place).

Heavy metals? I'm not sure that that does happen it that case. Heavy metals certainly go straight through the digesters at the sewage works.

Of course. I should have been more specific as to 'contaminants' (as well as 'shot', lol), meaning 'organic' in the industrial sense.

Would you get 'heavy metals' from domestic shit?

[kenneal - lagger]

No, they come from industrial waste normally. Unless you get some twat dumping lead paint down the drain of course.

[emordnilap]

No, they come from industrial waste normally. Unless you get some twat dumping lead paint down the drain of course.

Ah yes. It doesn't seem as if anyone would do that. But someone would.