Migrant watch (merged topic)

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 15 Nov 2015, 21:31

If one accepts the argument that this is the beginning of the mass movement of billions of people over the next several decades for reasons that are, fundamentally, to do with climate, change, resource depletion and global population overshoot and that the immediate causes are merely proxies for that underlying crisis, then any argument about filtering refugees is an irrelevant, secondary one. As has already been stated by others on here, once one accepts that the migrant crisis has no end, this ethically changes everything. At some point, if we do not wish to commit national suicide, borders will have to be closed to everyone except those who can directly be shown to have a specific and critical value to this nation. At which point, the provenance of their migrancy will be neither here nor there. The only question that remains, then, is when we acquire the moral courage to accept this reality.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 15 Nov 2015, 22:01

The current thing is mainly nothing to do with climate change. There is an initial question as to whether there need to be limits on migration. Few people disagree with this.

The question then is one of detail as to how the limits operate.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 15 Nov 2015, 22:10

Land and water. Underneath everything is land and water.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 90434.html

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 15 Nov 2015, 22:43

Beyond the fighting and fanaticism, another long-term threat menaces the world's troubled regions.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 15 Nov 2015, 23:58

johnhemming2 wrote:The current thing is mainly nothing to do with climate change.

I don't agree. Part of the reason Syria ended up in such an unstable state was because of internal population movements due to climate change.

Post by **clv101** » 16 Nov 2015, 06:03

johnhemming2 wrote:The current thing is mainly nothing to do with climate change.

This would be worth expanding on. It's tricky to unpick cause and effect, what are triggers and what are amplifiers etc. I don't think we would have seen the Arab Spring unfold how and when it did if food prices hadn't spiked - the Russian heat wave certainly contributed to that. I also don't think Syria would have broken down the way it has without the internal migration caused by their drought. Both of these events have been made more likely by climate change.

In a parallel universe where the climate was unchanged, I doubt we'd be seeing the same situation.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 16 Nov 2015, 07:09

Also, in a parallel universe where the earth was twice the size, or the population was half the size, we would be less likely to be seeing this conflict. Or, finally, in a words where the easy oil was not running out and where the burning of oil was climatically unproblematic, we would likely not be seeing this conflict.

Environmental constraints in the face of 7 billion mouths to feed is what underlies it all. This is so blindingly obvious as to barely need spelling out.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 16 Nov 2015, 08:10

clv101 wrote:I don't think we would have seen the Arab Spring unfold how and when it did if food prices hadn't spiked - the Russian heat wave certainly contributed to that.

That is a fair point. The growth of Daesh is, however, partly linked to the attack on Iraq and partly linked to the West (particularly the US's) tolerance of them as an enemy of Assad.

I think now, however, Daesh are seen as a bigger problem than Assad.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 16 Nov 2015, 10:52

clv101 wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:The current thing is mainly nothing to do with climate change.
This would be worth expanding on. It's tricky to unpick cause and effect, what are triggers and what are amplifiers etc. I don't think we would have seen the Arab Spring unfold how and when it did if food prices hadn't spiked - the Russian heat wave certainly contributed to that. I also don't think Syria would have broken down the way it has without the internal migration caused by their drought. Both of these events have been made more likely by climate change.

In a parallel universe where the climate was unchanged, I doubt we'd be seeing the same situation.

Also add in that Egypt ,the most populous country swept by the Arab Spring, has become an oil importer and no longer has surplus oil to sell or those profits to use subsidizing food.
Note that nothing their present government has done will help their population/food/ cash flow, problems.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 16 Nov 2015, 12:29

http://pamelageller.com/2015/11/paris-s ... boat.html/

Paris suicide bombers saved off sinking migrant ship

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 16 Nov 2015, 15:32

Nice to hear Mr Hollande looking to close EU borders, ie he is now looking to use his brain

frank_begbie · Post by **frank_begbie** » 16 Nov 2015, 20:23

At least someone knows what its all about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7GAbVhjTSw

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 16 Nov 2015, 20:41

I don't think the Russians would agree.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 16 Nov 2015, 21:06

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34835005

One of the seven people named by French officials as suspected perpetrators of the deadly Paris attacks is believed to be Syrian - because of a passport found at the scene. Ahmad al-Mohammad, a 25-year-old from Idlib, is believed to have died after he blew himself up at the Stade de France. A Syrian passport bearing his name was found at the scene.

Investigators are still trying to establish whether the passport is genuine. The Paris prosecutor's office said fingerprints from the attacker matched those of a person who came to Europe with migrants via the Greek island of Leros. According to other reports, a man in Serbia has now been detained after the passport he was carrying also included many of the details on the passport found at the Paris attack scene - leading to speculation that multiple passports could have been from the same forger.

The possibility of one of the perpetrators being a Syrian would have implications for Europe's debate over admitting refugees, and this was not lost on the thousands of Syrians, inside and outside the country, who commented online. "God help the Syrian refugees in France and everywhere else," tweeted one. "They were already having a rough time and they will have an even tougher time now."

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 16 Nov 2015, 21:22

frank_begbie wrote:At least someone knows what its all about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7GAbVhjTSw

I don't disagree with any of this Frank. But, it does not change anything vis a vis the letting of refugees into Europe. One the one hand, our governments must be forced, if possible, to stop inflaming the Middle East. But, simultaneously, we, the people of Europe, also cannot allow those same governments to sacrifice our futures here in Europe on the back of a policy of increasing the number of workers/consumers (aided and abetted in an unholy alliance with a self-flagellating liberal left) in order to try and keep afloat an utterly bankrupt model of perpetual growth.

Indeed, the interviewee makes it quite clear his own view is that the migrant crisis is an engineered crisis by the Yanks and their vassal states. I agree with him.