Migrant watch (merged topic)

[Little John]

if you have have people with a average IQ of 59 and a continent with a average of 70 your not going to develop a wealthy society, so basically everything you have been taught and believe about equality or morality and international socialism is bunk, very dangerous bunk.....

This is getting very boring J2M. Most of these refugees/migrants are not stupid. Most of them are just ordinary, desperate human beings living terrible, extraordinary lives.

And yet, still, we cannot let them come.

[johnhemming2]

Most migrants are good people doing the best they can for themselves. The problem as LJ says is that complete freedom of movement undermines things like the welfare state. We should be encouraging people to improve their lives in situ rather than by coming to the UK.

[3rdRock]

And yet, still, we cannot let them come.

So why don't we all try to find a more equitable solution?

A few posts back, I mentioned a film, 'The March', made by the BBC in 1990.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BW83sHDCpc

Although a work of fiction at the time, it is now proving to be very prophetic.

Shoot me down for being an idealist if you like but why don't we explore some of the solutions that were mentioned?

1) A redistribution of global wealth. Achievable? Perhaps not, given the acquisitive nature of most folk in the West these days. Greed is good.

2) A 'Marshall Plan' for the Middle East and Africa.

This would need to be rigorously policed to avoid corruption, both in the West (an end to lucrative arms contracts) and the ME & Africa (no more gold laden palaces or weapons for their despotic leaders).

3) A UN controlled? 'safe haven' in North Africa?, where any migrant trying to escape from war or the resulting poverty, could seek sanctuary.

Given the current state of the world and the implications of PO and climate change, all of these goals will probably never come to fruition.

The musings of an idealistic dreamer you may think?

Perhaps, but if we don't try, you might as well lead those who still preserve any sense of integrity and compassion to the chambers, because the prospect of living in a 'Grave New World' would amount to little more than survival in another doomed Reich.

[jonny2mad]

We have been giving aid to africa for ages, look at the number of charitys that have operated in africa since the victorians.

Pretty much all we ever do is try to help lift up africa, surely at some point you should figure out it wont work, and there is a reason it has not worked.

As for north africa would the un be able to stop someone like Isis, personally I doubt it .

A redistribution of global wealth. Achievable? Perhaps not given the acquisitive nature of most folk in the West these days. Greed is good.

if you have two societys the 59 IQ one and the 100 IQ one, how long does the 100 IQ society have to give their wealth to those 59 IQ people, and will that fix things and how .

Think about what I am saying gather up special needs people in the uk give them a country to run and send them money and teachers, when will that stop their kids needing help . it wont .

[cubes]

1) A redistribution of global wealth. Achievable? Perhaps not, given the acquisitive nature of most folk in the West these days. Greed is good.

You seem to have forgotten that all people are like this, some people have more opportunities than others. Think of all the wealth that has been stolen/embezzled from these countries by their rulers? There wouldn't be so much of a problem without it.

2) A 'Marshall Plan' for the Middle East and Africa.

This would need to be rigorously policed to avoid corruption, both in the West (an end to lucrative arms contracts) and the ME & Africa (no more gold laden palaces or weapons for their despotic leaders).

See (1)

3) A UN controlled? 'safe haven' in North Africa?, where any migrant trying to escape from war or the resulting poverty, could seek sanctuary.

IMO this is the ONLY possible solution. Well, maybe not a solution but something to ease things. It'll have to be a proper city with proper jobs though. It's pointless if they live in tents and have nothing to do except receive food handouts.

[3rdRock]

1) A redistribution of global wealth. Achievable? Perhaps not, given the acquisitive nature of most folk in the West these days. Greed is good.

You seem to have forgotten that all people are like this, some people have more opportunities than others. Think of all the wealth that has been stolen/embezzled from these countries by their rulers? There wouldn't be so much of a problem without it.

2) A 'Marshall Plan' for the Middle East and Africa.

This would need to be rigorously policed to avoid corruption, both in the West (an end to lucrative arms contracts) and the ME & Africa (no more gold laden palaces or weapons for their despotic leaders).

See (1)

I did say ....

Shoot me down for being an idealist if you like but why don't we explore some of the solutions that were mentioned?

[UndercoverElephant]

3) A UN controlled? 'safe haven' in North Africa?, where any migrant trying to escape from war or the resulting poverty, could seek sanctuary.

IMO this is the ONLY possible solution. Well, maybe not a solution but something to ease things. It'll have to be a proper city with proper jobs though. It's pointless if they live in tents and have nothing to do except receive food handouts.

Most of North Africa is a desert. There's a reason why not many people live there.

[biffvernon]

Most migrants are good people doing the best they can for themselves. The problem as LJ says is that complete freedom of movement undermines things like the welfare state. We should be encouraging people to improve their lives in situ rather than by coming to the UK.

The problem for those with a xenophobic mindset is that the academic economics research suggests that inward migration to the UK, far from undermining the welfare state, is a net benefit to the UK economy, ultimately securing the welfare state.

[biffvernon]

The musings of an idealistic dreamer you may think?

You, me and quite a few others, Plato, Aristotle, Jesus, St. Francis, John Ruskin, Kier Hardy, William Morris, Pope Francis, Caroline Lucas, Jeremy Corbyn, we all can pick our favourites.

One little point about climate change, the models suggest that the Horn of Africa, Somalia/Ethiopia/Eritrea, might well become wetter and become a generally more habitable region, though much larger parts of Africa fare worse.

[jonny2mad]

Most migrants are good people doing the best they can for themselves. The problem as LJ says is that complete freedom of movement undermines things like the welfare state. We should be encouraging people to improve their lives in situ rather than by coming to the UK.

The problem for those with a xenophobic mindset is that the academic economics research suggests that inward migration to the UK, far from undermining the welfare state, is a net benefit to the UK economy, ultimately securing the welfare state.

Did you read what happened to the man who discovered DNA when he said something factually correct but politically incorrect, how can you believe what your being told .

[Little John]

Most migrants are good people doing the best they can for themselves. The problem as LJ says is that complete freedom of movement undermines things like the welfare state. We should be encouraging people to improve their lives in situ rather than by coming to the UK.

The problem for those with a xenophobic mindset is that the academic economics research suggests that inward migration to the UK, far from undermining the welfare state, is a net benefit to the UK economy, ultimately securing the welfare state.

You keep doing this Biff. On the one hand, you like to portray yourself as a radical Green. But, as soon as your argument requires it, you are more than willing to avail yourself of utterly discredited and unsustainable growth-based assumptions to back your argument up. You are either a hypocrite who takes the rest of us for fools or you are a fool yourself. Or both.

[vtsnowedin]

I may well be very naive and like Jeremy Corbyn, strive for high ideals which will ultimately prove to be totally unrealistic and in many cases, laughable, in the eyes of a cynical 'Thatcher Generation' who have been brought up to believe that 'might is right'.
.

Might is often wrong but it almost always prevails making the question moot.

[3rdRock]

I may well be very naive and like Jeremy Corbyn, strive for high ideals which will ultimately prove to be totally unrealistic and in many cases, laughable, in the eyes of a cynical 'Thatcher Generation' who have been brought up to believe that 'might is right'.
.

Might is often wrong but it almost always prevails making the question moot.

Wrong and flying in the face of some of the other despair-laden comments I have made this morning, I firmly believe in the following quotation:

Whenever I despair, I remember that the way of truth and love has always won. There may be tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they may seem invincible, but in the end, they always fail. Think of it: always.

Gandhi

[jonny2mad]

Gandhi also admitted that his tactics would not have worked with the nazis, they wouldnt have worked with the british at the time of clive .

[jonny2mad]

Had we adopted non-violence as the weapon of the strong, because we realised that it was more effective than any other weapon, in fact the mightiest force in the world, we would have made use of its full potency and not have discarded it as soon as the fight against the British was over or we were in a position to wield conventional weapons. But as I have already said, we adopted it out of our helplessness. If we had the atom bomb, we would have used it against the British.

Speech (16 June 1947) as the official date for Indian independence approached (15 August 1947) , as quoted in Mahatma Gandhi: The Last Phase (1958) yup non violence