Labour Party/government Watch

[PS_RalphW]

Here is another flight of fantasy.

CJ is now obviously a shoe in for labour leader.

A week later Chinese stock market falls by a further 50% in one week.

Several major banks in the City cease trading.

Cameron forced to declare emergency measures and a national unity government.

JC demands an election within 3 months.

JC PM by 2016.

[vtsnowedin]

That is a point I have tried to make repeatedly in the "End of Capitalism debates". Capitalism acknowledges human nature and makes use of it by rewarding individual effort. Socialism denies human self interest and greed as well as variations in talent and ability and attempts to pay everybody equally regardless of the quantity or quality of the individuals production.
Moving to some form of socialism will cause more problems then it will solve.

Unfortunately raw Human nature is often not very nice, we counter it with civilization, which prevents us from doing what our nature prompts us to do.

Socialism could be described as the next level of civilization, where we are not only forced to repress our nastier urges, but to work positively for the benefit of our fellow Humans.

Corruption is a pox on both houses. I'm certainly not defending unregulated and corrupt Capitalism anymore than the proponents of more socialism are promoting a cronyism laced corrupt Stalinist like Socialism.
Point being that both systems will fail if corrupt but Socialism will fail even if it is not just due to human nature.

[UndercoverElephant]

Corruption is a pox on both houses. I'm certainly not defending unregulated and corrupt Capitalism anymore than the proponents of more socialism are promoting a cronyism laced corrupt Stalinist like Socialism.
Point being that both systems will fail if corrupt but Socialism will fail even if it is not just due to human nature.

It is very obvious to people outside the United States that people inside the United States have been systematically brainwashed into believing things like that. Please do not mistake US culture for reality or human nature.

I've tried explaining this to you (and other Americans) before, but you just don't seem to be able to get it. What appears to be "normal" in the US, in terms of left-right politics, looks like extreme right wing politics to almost everybody else, including most Europeans.

Sweden and Norway are socialist states. Their systems are not "failing due to human nature." They are working better than the US or the UK system does. But don't let anything annoying like evidence get in the way of your prejudices...

[Catweazle]

That is a point I have tried to make repeatedly in the "End of Capitalism debates". Capitalism acknowledges human nature and makes use of it by rewarding individual effort. Socialism denies human self interest and greed as well as variations in talent and ability and attempts to pay everybody equally regardless of the quantity or quality of the individuals production.
Moving to some form of socialism will cause more problems then it will solve.

Unfortunately raw Human nature is often not very nice, we counter it with civilization, which prevents us from doing what our nature prompts us to do.

Socialism could be described as the next level of civilization, where we are not only forced to repress our nastier urges, but to work positively for the benefit of our fellow Humans.

Jesus wept, you are sounding like a Marxist there C.

Only joking,

The point, as I am certain you are aware, is that of course we can never achieve a fully communist world. Nor should we even try to fully implement one as it would surely turn to shit. The point is to have our heads and our hearts at least facing firmly n that direction when it comes to policy-making. But, tempered by our feet planted firmly on the ground. Thus, ensuring any such policy is not at direct odds with reality, That way, at least, we get to achieve the possible if not the ideal.

Communism is the victim of the biggest PR campaign in history, it's difficult to even imagine a communist country in vivid colour. Not saying that I think communism will ever work, just that we've been brainwashed for decades.

Interestingly, I've known quite a few communists over the years and without fail they imagined themselves as guiding people to a glorious future rather than simply being an ordinary citizen. I think this is quite illuminating, Human nature trumps all eventually.

[johnhemming2]

Communism is the victim of the biggest PR campaign in history, it's difficult to even imagine a communist country in vivid colour. Not saying that I think communism will ever work, just that we've been brainwashed for decades.

State control of the economy has been tried in all sorts of places. In my view some regulation is warranted, but going for all out control of the economy by politicians gives a bad result for the people.

[vtsnowedin]

[
Sweden and Norway are socialist states. Their systems are not "failing due to human nature." They are working better than the US or the UK system does. But don't let anything annoying like evidence get in the way of your prejudices...

Evidence? bring on your evidence. Note first that Norway is sucking on a great big fossil fuel teat. Sweden I'd have to do some research on but if you want to prove your point you might want to back it up with some "evidence".

[Catweazle]

State control of the economy has been tried in all sorts of places. In my view some regulation is warranted, but going for all out control of the economy by politicians gives a bad result for the people.

Any system with politicians ends badly for the people.

[UndercoverElephant]

[
Sweden and Norway are socialist states. Their systems are not "failing due to human nature." They are working better than the US or the UK system does. But don't let anything annoying like evidence get in the way of your prejudices...

Evidence? bring on your evidence. Note first that Norway is sucking on a great big fossil fuel teat. Sweden I'd have to do some research on but if you want to prove your point you might want to back it up with some "evidence".

What is it that you doubt? That they are socialist states, or that their version of socialism is working just fine?

Norway's oil riches aren't relevant to this discussion, because most of that money has been squirreled away in a sovereign wealth fund (unlike the UK, where it was all squandered). These two countries are high-tax, high-spend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

The Nordic model is described as a system of competitive capitalism combined with a large public sector (roughly 30% of the work force).[6] In 2013, The Economist described its countries as "stout free-traders who resist the temptation to intervene even to protect iconic companies" while also looking for ways to temper capitalism's harsher effects, and declared that the Nordic countries "are probably the best-governed in the world".[6][7] The Nordic combination of extensive public provision of welfare and a culture of individualism has been described by Lars Trägårdh, of Ersta Sköndal University College, as "statist individualism".[6] Some economists have referred to the Nordic economic model as a form of "cuddly" capitalism, with low levels of inequality, generous welfare states and reduced concentration of top incomes, and contrast it with the more "cut-throat" capitalism of the United States, which has high levels of inequality and a larger concentration of top incomes.[8][9]

[johnhemming2]

These two countries are high-tax, high-spend.

That may be true.

However, they (Sweden) have also gone further with "free schools" in having free schools for profit and are more more willing to privatise things in that way than the UK. Hence describing them as "socialist" would be inaccurate.

[biffvernon]

Caroline writes to Jeremy

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 69934.html

[biffvernon]

Here's Harriet Harman explaining the ALL were welcome to support Labour and vote in the leadership election. Well, a week's a long time in politics and this speech was given several weeks ago so that must be why it doesn't count.

Still, she made it quite clear that we were welcome. On that basis we paid our £3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57XZri7mOU

[vtsnowedin]

These two countries are high-tax, high-spend.

That may be true.

However, they (Sweden) have also gone further with "free schools" in having free schools for profit and are more more willing to privatise things in that way than the UK. Hence describing them as "socialist" would be inaccurate.

Poking around a bit I found this. Average salary$5279/ month, Average net after taxes $2910/ month. And that is with 90 percent of industry still privately owned.
Thank you but NO thank you.!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

[PS_RalphW]

When you have free universal healthcare, child care, education, pensions, welfare and good cheap public transport, and extremely low crime rates, $2900 a month goes a long way to a very good standard of living.

[UndercoverElephant]

These two countries are high-tax, high-spend.

That may be true.

However, they (Sweden) have also gone further with "free schools" in having free schools for profit and are more more willing to privatise things in that way than the UK. Hence describing them as "socialist" would be inaccurate.

Poking around a bit I found this. Average salary$5279/ month, Average net after taxes $2910/ month. And that is with 90 percent of industry still privately owned.
Thank you but NO thank you.!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden

Oh yes, I'd far prefer to live in the United States, with its unfit educational system, health system designed to extract money from people and completely fails the poor, insane gun laws and unbelievable levels of firearm-related crime, widespread belief that climate change and evolution are conspiracies...

This is the problem with the United States. In so many ways your country is backwards, and yet the American people have been so successfully brainwashed into believing that the "American Way" is the best, that they look at other countries who are quite obviously better run and culturally more advanced, and say "No way!! That's baaaaad!!"

This is why people hate America.

[vtsnowedin]

Oh yes, I'd far prefer to live in the United States, with its unfit educational system, health system designed to extract money from people and completely fails the poor, insane gun laws and unbelievable levels of firearm-related crime, widespread belief that climate change and evolution are conspiracies...

This is the problem with the United States. In so many ways your country is backwards, and yet the American people have been so successfully brainwashed into believing that the "American Way" is the best, that they look at other countries who are quite obviously better run and culturally more advanced, and say "No way!! That's baaaaad!!"

This is why people hate America.

Well my three daughters have three Bachelors degrees , two PHD.s and a teachers license between them so I can't say the education system is unfit. All five of us are employed and have full healthcare through that employment or my retirement which I started drawing at age 51 so we are not poor. The vast majority of the gun crime is in the cities and is minority shooting minority and is a long way from me.
Not perfect by any means but I'd rather work with what I have here than move to a country that thinks it knows whats best for everybody and is dependent on the steel and timber markets for keeping the economy afloat.