Migrant watch (merged topic)

[biffvernon]

The names of 17,306 people who have drowned crossing the Mediterranean laid out at entrance of European Parliament

[UndercoverElephant]

And the point of this stunt is what, exactly?

What is the message?

I don't see one. All I see is an emotive stunt, designed to....designed to...designed to what, exactly?

Everybody involved in this discussion is very much aware that the migrants in question are real people living real lives.

[UndercoverElephant]

The dichotomy between dream and reality is false.

And you wonder why people think your views need to be attacked?

No, Biff, I can assure you that the dichotomy between idealism/dreaming and reality is itself very real indeed.

An example? There are people out there who have faith - who truly believe - that human ingenuity and modern technology is so powerful that, if climate change turns out to be real, we (or the market...) will figure out a technological fix for it. That is a dream. The reality is rather different.

The only difference between your sort of dreaming and that example is that it is a different dream. Both are just as divorced from reality, and they're equally dangerous.

One needs dreams, one needs to see the ideal path to know which direction the first real step needs to be taken in.

One also always has to remember that the dreams are, in fact, dreams, and not get them mixed up with reality at crucial moments, or, as in your case, deploy those dreams as if they were reality at key points in difficult ethical discussion where you're claiming the moral high ground.

A realist without dreams, without a vision of the ideal path, blunders about blindly, buffeted by the immediate forces, likely hurting people.

And a dreamer who has lost touch with reality blunders about blindly because he's not taking any notice of the immediate forces, likely hurting people.

[biffvernon]

designed to what, exactly?

What is the point of names on a war memorial? I think there is a point that is pretty obvious to most folk.

[Little John]

designed to what, exactly?

What is the point of names on a war memorial? I think there is a point that is pretty obvious to most folk.

And in what way are the two connected?

[UndercoverElephant]

designed to what, exactly?

What is the point of names on a war memorial?

In order to remind ourselves of the sacrifice made by previous generations of our own countrymen, for the security and well-being of those alive today.

I think there is a point that is pretty obvious to most folk.

That is a total non-answer, the reason being that you don't have the faintest clue how to answer the question I actually asked you.

These people died trying to get to Europe in a boat. They did not sacrifice their lives for others during wartime.

So I will ask it again:

What is the point in listing the names of migrants who have recently died trying to reach Europe by boat?

If you actually try to answer the question, instead of dodging it like a politician, there's still a chance this thread won't descend into the normal sort of abuse that follows when you pull stunts like this. Right now, you're asking for more abuse.

[UndercoverElephant]

Biff Vernon:

I'll answer my own question, since you obviously won't/can't.

The point in listing these names is to attempt to portray this situation as something it isn't, just like you're trying to do. You implied it was like the names on a war memorial, but didn't explain why these things are supposedly alike.

Names are put on war memorials to remind us that the people who died in those wars were real people, from real communities in a real places, rather than just nameless statistics. It is to make sure that the sacrifices made by those people are never forgotten, in the hope that future generations won't make mistakes that lead to avoidable future wars.

These migrants quite clearly did not give their lives to help others. On the contrary, they were trying to get to Europe to improve their own life-situations at the expense of the people who are already here. So the analogy is fundamentally dishonest in that respect.

It is also misleading in another respect, and that is that it tries to imply that anybody who is opposed to migration - anybody who is worried about people trying to get here and wishes to discourage it - is not thinking about these migrants as if they were real people. The truth, and it is abundantly clear from reading people's posts in this and similar threads on this board, is that we are very much aware that they are indeed real people and that their plight is very serious. The fact that we believe that we have to do something to stop the flow of migrants even though they are real people who are in real trouble is testament to just how serious the global situation and the future prospects for Europe are.

But you aren't interested in any of that are you? Nope...you think it is appropriate to bypass all of that thinking and replace it with an emotive but simplistic, poorly-thought-out and essentially meaningless stunt.

Well done. Have a peanut.

[jonny2mad]

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/20 ... orist-act/

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/08 ... convicted/

Swedish press are playing down the beheading aspect I suppose it doesnt go along with the everything is rainbows and light meme

Sweden is the number 2 rape captital of the world after south africa because of their immigration policy

[biffvernon]

Names are put on war memorials to remind us that the people who died in those wars were real people, from real communities in a real places, rather than just nameless statistics.

Exactly so, and that is precisely the point of this demonstration, to remind us that the people who died in their attempt to escape disastrous situations were real people, from real communities in a real places, rather than just nameless statistics. I applaud the compassionate people who made this happen.

[UndercoverElephant]

Names are put on war memorials to remind us that the people who died in those wars were real people, from real communities in a real places, rather than just nameless statistics.

Exactly so, and that is precisely the point of this demonstration, to remind us that the people who died in their attempt to escape disastrous situations were real people, from real communities in a real places, rather than just nameless statistics.

Who do you think needed reminding of this?

[jonny2mad]

Whats the most compassionate you have a lifeboat thats full saving those people or rowing out and gathering up more people and drowning together .

By looking after that lifeboat you are saving some people, going out picking up people you cant care for your causing more death for what purpose .

People actually do this at sea the lifeboats on titanic didnt go in and pick people up because if they had to early they knew they would be sunk by the numbers of survivors and those survivors were the relatives of the people in the lifeboats .

Thats quite a normal thing to do at sea . Ive said about my dad leaving people to drown in world war two because picking them up would just mean another ship sunk by u-boats . which shows the more compassion and if compassion kills more people and causes more pain whats the point of it .

We have had this conversation lots of time you clearly don't get it or theres something wrong with you where you like trying to guilt trip people for no reason

[AutomaticEarth]

Looking at the mess at Kos. The migrants are complaining that Europe is worse than they expected. They can go back to Syria. Not a problem with me. We need propaganda in their home countries to tell the them as such.

Come on, you can do better analysis than this, surely. At Kos crap admin left people waiting in the hot sun for a few hours without water while nearby tourists lounged on their luxury yacht decks. No bombs were dropped, nobody died.

The Greeks are struggling with their own financial crisis. They could have done without these migrants. They could have stayed where they were. Amazing thing is that that they tolerated this crap. Come on biff you know better than this.

[AutomaticEarth]

Worth checking out....

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/

[AutomaticEarth]

We can always shut the tunnel..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... itain.html

[biffvernon]

The better side of humanity
http://www.theguardian.com/voluntary-se ... re-helping