Migrant watch (merged topic)

[biffvernon]

Radio 4 Today Programme ~8.45
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z

Mark Goldring, Oxfam UK Chief Exec, right on the button. Worth a listen.

[johnhemming2]

The people coming from Eritrea, Somalia, and Sudan are in a different situation. Where might they best stay?

Most of the refugees from South Sudan go to Ethiopia as do Eritreans and some Somalians.

The real question, of course, is how to deal with the instability in those countries in such a manner as makes them more stable rather than less.

I have done a lot of immigration casework and deal with people from Syria and Eritrea. However, solutions designed for small numbers fail at large numbers.

[peaceful_life]

The essence in what I'm saying is that any notions of self preservation, both here..and there, will be best served by bringing about primary ecological stability

But on a global scale, "primary ecological stability" via planned, voluntary means, is about as far away as human colonisation of Mars. The only difference being that "primary ecological stability" is guaranteed to arrive sooner or later anyway, by an unplanned, involuntary process involving lots of humans dying of starvation, disease and war, until there's nothing like so many of us destabilising the ecosystem.

because if our humanly efforts aren't focused on getting it done then the biospherical degradation, coupled with climatic upheaval, will simply rip right through us, irrespective of geographical location.

I see no reason why it should rip through all human societies equally - in the same way or at the same time. It seems to me inevitable that some parts of the world are going to go tits up much sooner than others. In fact this is already happening, which is exactly why we are talking about this. You seem to be saying something along the lines of "if it all goes horribly wrong in, say, sub-saharan Africa, then we can't stop the fallout from making it all go horribly wrong here."

I don't think this is true, there are plenty of people who agree with me, and if the political mainstream doesn't at least attempt to preserve some semblance of civilisation in Europe/UK when this happens then the people will elect an extremist government who will. If the people currently arriving on Greek islands believed they'd be rounded up and taken back to Turkey/Libya the next day, then they would not pay the traffickers £1000 to get here. Likewise if the people camped in Calais believed their chances of being allowed to stay in the UK were nil, they wouldn't be there.

You are saying nothing can be done. I don't agree.

It'll remain as far off as we allow it to be, however....as you know, the process has already started and will accelerate as reality dawns into wider awareness, so the comparison with humans colonising Mars, which is an impossibility, doesn't stack up against our already existing sites of demonstrable regeneration.

Not the average happy clappy drum circle fraternity...
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/featur ... ss-plateau

' The physical and economic transformation of the Loess Plateau offers the clearest demonstration of what can be achieved through close partnership with the government, good policies, technical support and active consultation and participation of the people. IDA resources – through direct investments, policy and technical assistance, training, capacity building and the efforts and behavioral change of the people in the project area – helped demonstrate the effectiveness of a model that improved the lives and livelihoods of more than 2.5 million people, and many more through replication'

And here...

'The ultimate purpose of this project is to rehabilitate, restore & regenerate the MENA Region’s ecological base. The impact of undertaking this project will mean that the people of the MENA Region will have developed the internal capacity to provide access to clean water, a secure supply of food, stable ecological and environmental infrastructure, improved health, increased educational opportunities, an overall better quality of life and a means to develop a self-sustaining economy leading to healthier, more productive lives. The main broad goal of the project is to enhance and maintain the highly valuable Ecosystem Services provided by the region’s landscapes through a process of knowledge sharing and capacity building for long-term local stewardship'
http://permaculturenews.org/2015/07/15/ ... obe-award/

The prevention is far more appealing than the cure.

The only difference being that "primary ecological stability" is guaranteed to arrive

I'd like to think that a systems reset, to something resembling biospherical equilibrium is inevitable, but I couldn't out-rule a slide into a Venus syndrome and there is absolutely no guarantees that during any rebalancing process will mean conducive conditions for human existence and yet another reason why deliberate regeneration is our best option.

I see no reason why it should rip through all human societies equally - in the same way or at the same time. It seems to me inevitable that some parts of the world are going to go tits up much sooner than others

I never said simultaneously, but the overall effect will be the same, if not delayed. True enough that the tits going up is staggered, for varying reasons, throughout regions, but things are spreading and gripping...
http://www.youris.com/Environment/Deser ... _Europe.kl

You are saying nothing can be done

That's quite an odd assertion in the face of me stating that...

'if our humanly efforts aren't focused on getting it done'

...isn't an obvious enough allusion to doing something, then I'll clarify it by saying that it would be wise to mobilise the largest collective effort in self preservation ever undertaken by our species,

[Mark]

solutions designed for small numbers fail at large numbers.

Very true. Let's use the current situation as an exercise to build solutions that don't fail for large numbers. What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

Biff, what would YOU do ????
As ever, you're long on moralising, but short on practical solutions.
Given your stance, assume you'd be happy for them all to rock up in Lincolnshire ?

[Lurkalot]

What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

By then I would think parts of the UK would have gone the same way so the question of how many we should take and rehouse would also have gone.

[jonny2mad]

You are deliberately conflating indigenous ethnic minority groups of people with immigrants. Pack it in. Also, lets just get this straight. do you have a problem with inward immigration per-se or just inward immigration of Musluims?

I would allow inward immigration of for example white south africans into europe .

Because white south africans have no future in africa and they are europeans, they have low birthrates and dont have plans to change the national laws of the uk or eu and there are only a few million of them .

I think I have given numbers from indigenous ethnic majority groups of muslims that have been here a generation or two and people who just arrive or I did in a earlier post, both ar far higher than the national average this is where I got the half british muslim men and 3/4 muslim women on the dole . the 82% of somalis on the dole I believe are recent migrants

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... point.html

[jonny2mad]

And on Radio 4 Today Programme we have just heard James Jones Bishop of Liverpool, reminding us of the words of St. Paul, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

This comes from a book called the bible right, the first part of which has the same god commanding sex slavery, and people sending out their daughters to be gang raped to death genocide of children and women in a offensive war to take over a country .

have you ever read the bible ?.

charity pah

[clv101]

solutions designed for small numbers fail at large numbers.

Very true. Let's use the current situation as an exercise to build solutions that don't fail for large numbers. What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

Biff, what would YOU do ????
As ever, you're long on moralising, but short on practical solutions.
Given your stance, assume you'd be happy for them all to rock up in Lincolnshire ?

This is one of the questions of the 21st century. I've no idea what to do, I don't know anyone who does. I expect climate change and especially sea level rise to displace hundreds of millions, maybe even a billion people this century.

It's why I think bickering over whether the UK accepts one thousand, ten thousand or 100,000 refugees is very tedious. The much more interesting problem is what we do globally about by far the largest human movement mankind has ever known.

Critical is climate change mitigation, which is why we should be doing everything we can to limit warming to plus 2-4 degrees. For this reason I despair that many of the same people who are most vexed about immigration are actually critical of efforts to mitigate climate change. Also important is local adaptation in the more vulnerable places to lessen the source of climate refugees. Here again some of the same idiots object the Foreign Office and DFID's foreign aid budgets.

[jonny2mad]

I think the idea would be to not have the camels nose under the tent, ie dont have large communitys of people from countrys that are about to become migrants living in your country .

it is very likely to late we already have those communitys or bridgeheads here, we also have fools going on about charity as some kind of virtue when in the coming days it will be a curse .

The countrys to survive will be the first to be xenophobic .

Theres a lesson from isreal, google isreal wall and look at the wall isreal has . Now isreal was created by migration at first peaceful into a country that didnt have strong border controls, they are trying their best to not be as stupid .

So if you allow mass migration into the uk and get driven out dont expect the people you gave charity to to be as dumb as you were .

[biffvernon]

What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

By then I would think parts of the UK would have gone the same way so the question of how many we should take and rehouse would also have gone.

Actually, I don't thinks so. It's something I study closely, what with living in Lincolnshire below sea level at each high tide. The UK has the capacity to build up sea defences; another metre of more on to our sea banks and walls would be a fairly straightforward civil engineering project and I've a lot of confidence that the Environment Agency can handle it for a long while. The Nile Delta is in a very different situation, geographically and politically. My bet is that Alexandria will be abandoned before Lincolnshire.

[jonny2mad]

solutions designed for small numbers fail at large numbers.

Very true. Let's use the current situation as an exercise to build solutions that don't fail for large numbers. What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

The people in these areas will migrate to the best possible place they can get to, my guess is you will see a outward expansion of jihadis . if you have pressures at home normally young men at first go out to conquer new places .

The visigoths had pressure from the huns and went off and conquered rome, the vikings had population pressures and they went off conquering, you have the caliphate up and coming in north africa and with many supporters here, my bet they will try to come into europe .

Then you will have a reaction like you have had every other time europe has been invaded by jihadis

[biffvernon]

solutions designed for small numbers fail at large numbers.

Very true. Let's use the current situation as an exercise to build solutions that don't fail for large numbers. What, for instance, will be done when Alexandria and, later, Cairo become part of the Greater Mediterranean Sea and their people need new homes?

Biff, what would YOU do ????
As ever, you're long on moralising, but short on practical solutions.
Given your stance, assume you'd be happy for them all to rock up in Lincolnshire ?

Why ME, Mark? Let's stick to rational discussion and not get personal.

CLV101 shows the way to practical solutions. Climate mitigation has to be top of the list. I argued a long time ago (before most other people noticed) that the Syrian conflict had its origins in the 2005-2010 drought, possibly the worst drought in the 'fertile crescent' since agriculture was invented there in the Neolithic.

I make no apologies for moralising, and, even though I'm an atheist, drawing on the words of St. Paul as quoted by the Bishop this morning.

Mark, there's a framing problem in your question when you use the word 'them'. I know what you mean but therein lies a basic difference in outlook between myself and some folk on PowerSwitch. The 'us' and 'them' thing. I don't see there should be much difference in the way people get treated just on the basis of where they were born.

As for 'assume you'd be happy for them all to rock up in Lincolnshire', well that's not going to happen. As I've often pointed out, most folk want to live and die in the same place as their ancestors. And those that aren't given that opportunity because of global warming, wars and bad government won't all want to 'rock up in Lincolnshire'. The world is a big place and we need to have international agreement on the fair and just distribution of refugees. Right now the UK is not doing its bit.

And what could be our bit? Well, I think we could have a constructive discussion about just what would be the practical implications if the UK took in, say, a million refugees over the next couple of years. It's a mind-boggling thought but rather than allowing the mind to be boggled, let's consider, as a 'tactical exercise without troops', what that would mean in terms of land-use, building costs, infrastructure and the social implications.

Short term, I've a big tent, a patch of lawn and a plot big enough for a family to grow their own veg, that I'd be happy to lend to a refugee family if other people made similar gestures. If they didn't know how to already, I'd teach them how to grow stuff and build a low-impact house for almost no cost.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Or maybe it was 'De chacun selon ses facultés, à chacun selon ses besoins' - Louis Blanc, 1851.

[jonny2mad]

First biff you never have rational discussions you wont debate me for a start, you seldom answer questions other people put to you your really very amusing

Climate mitigation isnt at present the big problem its pure islam and isis, thats what lots of people are fleeing from people burning people alive in cages and selling non muslim women in the street like they were apples .

if your a atheist why draw on the bible for moral guidance

so you want to treat everyone in the world the same does this apply to your family because it should if you wish to follow that reasoning, would you look after strangers the same as your wife or uncle fred, most people wouldnt and would think someone who did a bad husband or nephew .

I can imagine some arab going don't worry millions of jews are not going to arrive here in palestine its mostly desert and jews like towns, theres no reason hundreds of millions of people wont migrate to europe if people like you let them .

What I would do is not just have one imaginary refugee family but a bunch of them on your property, and take away your ability to say sorry you cant come here its full because thats what your actually doing .

if you really are not just talking its easy to get a load of somalis to live with you do it, dont wait for other people . but its not just one family its a load of familys without you in control

I love your posts by the way

[jonny2mad]

3rd rock posted "Corbyn urged politicians to “explicitly recognise the contribution of Africans and other migrants to our society, not speak in these disgraceful terms.”

Does corbyn talk about the many negatives of immigration because if he doesnt isnt that of itself really really really racist . if I point out that 82 % of somalis migrants are on benefits you get in a hissy fit but its ok to talk about contributions these people make

Because if you say something that disturbs the everythings great zeitgeist you get called names, or you get threats or people try to put you in jail, which they have done and tried to do to people on the right who talked about for example grooming .

you could again look at the rotherham cover up and how the so called anti racists reacted

[biffvernon]

One of several reasons not to eat prawns.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/en-gb/76 ... rafficking

One of several reasons not to approve of the UK Foreign Secretary.
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/marauding-mi ... -ignorance