Migrant watch (merged topic)

[johnhemming2]

"Asylum Seeker" and "Illegal Immigrant" are not the same.

Most people who are in the UK illegally are people who have overstayed their visas.

[Catweazle]

"Asylum Seeker" and "Illegal Immigrant" are not the same.

Same person, different time. At the moment one crosses the border one is an 'illegal immigrant'. When one then goes to a police station asking for asylum there begins a process that leads to gaining the status of 'asylum seeker' and one is then entitled to receive £36.95 per week.

One's status as 'human being' and 'refugee' is maintained throughout the process. These two categories oblige the state to offer protection under United Nations conventions.

That's not true Biff. Although an asylum seeker will be an illegal immigrant for a while it doesn't follow than an illegal immigrant will be an asylum seeker. You know this.

Also, although all will be human beings, not all will be refugees. You know this too.

Ask yourself why a refugee or asylum seeker is willing to risk his life to escape from France.

[Catweazle]

"Asylum Seeker" and "Illegal Immigrant" are not the same.

Most people who are in the UK illegally are people who have overstayed their visas.

I'm sure you are correct, the visa system was widely abused, many fake educational facilities have been closed, many more opened up.

[johnhemming2]

Ask yourself why a refugee or asylum seeker is willing to risk his life to escape from France.

People risk their lives at times getting on or off a bus in traffic or even crossing the road.

The challenge in asylum policy is that proper refugees normally have additional economic reasons to migrate. The exceptions being oligarchs.

I dealt with about 20 refugees from Bosnia and a family of 4 from Croatia in the early 90s. Some of the Bosnians didn't like the housing association properties they were allocated and decided to return to Bosnia.

The family from Croatia stayed in my house and have remained in the UK.

[johnhemming2]

I'm sure you are correct, the visa system was widely abused, many fake educational facilities have been closed, many more opened up.

These are mainly visas for proper educational facilities. As the system has been tightened up previous routes into citizenship now are no longer routes into citizenship.

[Catweazle]

Well, I for one hope it doesn't. I have recently met an asylum seeker from Kosovo - a journalist on the run from the authorities in that country, after he exposed things they didn't want expose.

I'd like to think there will always be room for people like him.

So would I.

But;

In twenty or thirty year's time, when faced with two individuals, one of whom is running way from a specific risk of torture and another who is running away from a more general, but nevertheless real, risk of starvation and war, what difference is there, morally, in terms of who to help since their lives are both at risk? None, as far as I can see. In which case it will come down simply whether or not the resources are there to help and the extent to which the individual will be useful in our society, If the resources are not available and/or the individual will not be able to contribute at least as much as they consume, then it will be of little comfort to anyone to know that we would have helped them had the resources been available. In other words, in the absence of the necessary resources, it will simply not be possible to admit them, no matter what the reason for their seeking to migrate here.

These are the hard realities that face us in the coming years.

That's a painful reality. I've always thought that we should offer a safe haven for asylum seekers, it's the decent thing to do, but if their numbers climb how will we cope ?

Who decides that we can't take any more ? Only a heartless bastard could do it, but at some point it will have to be done. I suspect there is nobody on this forum who could do it, that's why we're not running the country.

[Catweazle]

Ask yourself why a refugee or asylum seeker is willing to risk his life to escape from France.

People risk their lives at times getting on or off a bus in traffic or even crossing the road.

Jumping off a bus is very different to storming police lines or jumping onto a moving train.

I dealt with about 20 refugees from Bosnia and a family of 4 from Croatia in the early 90s. Some of the Bosnians didn't like the housing association properties they were allocated and decided to return to Bosnia.

So were the Bosnians really "refugees" ? I don't think so.

[johnhemming2]

So were the Bosnians really "refugees" ? I don't think so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

They were granted asylum.

[mr brightside]

I honestly have spent many nightshifts listening to people talking about the lies they can tell to play the refugee system,



And which european country is the most stupid to fall for these lies, which european country has the best benefits system this was while working nightshifts in filton bristol .

I wish I had recorded the hours of conversations but even then your so daft and gullible you wouldnt understand

I think there is more planning to people's travel than most will give them credit for. I'd guess about 2/3 know exactly where they are heading, how they are getting there and what they are going to claim for and say when they arrive. Some countries have more of a pull factor (as TPTB are calling it) than others, depending upon the requirements of the person escaping their home nation. I see this as being evidenced in the fact that someone is willing to travel to the UK on top of a train or on a plank of wood laid accross the axels of a wagon; it's desperate and there has to be a specific reward at the end or they'd just stay in mainland Europe.

[AutomaticEarth]

Who decides that we can't take any more ? Only a heartless bastard could do it, but at some point it will have to be done. I suspect there is nobody on this forum who could do it, that's why we're not running the country.

Very true.

If the situation gets bad enough, however, certain disparate groups of people may come together and decide to take on the role themselves. At the moment I don't see any evidence of this happening however.

Also, with our current political system, I can't see any extreme far right party getting in any time soon, just look at UKIP with nearly 3m votes and one MP, although they may inspire said disparate groups I mentioned above.

[Catweazle]

So were the Bosnians really "refugees" ? I don't think so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

They were granted asylum.

If they were in genuine fear of being murdered would they have returned to Bosnia because they didn't like their housing ? Of course not.

I'm not saying that they weren't refugees at first, perhaps they were, but clearly they danger had subsided.

[johnhemming2]

The economic pull affects two things

a) The willingness of people who are subject to some form of persecution to move.

b) The willingness of people to fabricate cases requesting asylum.

Hence it has to be watched.

[AutomaticEarth]

This place really has turned into a Little Englander playground.

Whilst I agree that there are some on here that might fit that description, I would hope you were not conflating all views that do not concur with your own as being "little Englander". If you are doing that, then I would be grateful if you would unpack your comment vis a vis my posts please.

That was aimed at me by the sounds of it. As soon as the UKIP acronym is mentioned, Biff triggers the Bigot, Racist, Little Englander etc response......

[AutomaticEarth]

Hungary building a fence to keep out migrants crossing from Serbia, which has turned a blind eye and has forwarded then onto Hungary....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33799208

[clv101]

It's interesting, and disappointing, how decisive an issue this is between a bunch of people with really quite closely aligned world views. It's a shame this 'wicked problem' can't be discussed without things becoming personal.

I don't know what should/could be done now, in the medium term or the long term but I do suspect that heated arguments won't shed much light on matters!