Migrant watch (merged topic)

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 06 Aug 2015, 08:37

Little John wrote:Do you think that reduces their moral justification for attempting to move here?

No, but the interplay between benefits policy (particularly tax credits and qualifications for benefits) and migration needs to be properly understood. It is an area where details matter. This is mainly EEA migration anyway.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 06 Aug 2015, 10:02

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -warn.html

I was talking to apart from him being a no borders anarchist and therefore daft, one of the best people I know at survival skills recently, and yup I totally believe this is whats happening .

tpals · Post by **tpals** » 06 Aug 2015, 13:51

How about building a massive European immigration center in northern Africa? All applicants would have to be evaluated there with no exceptions. If someone is caught anywhere in Europe illegally and claiming asylum they would be shipped to the center (and be at the end of the queue) so they would be worse off trying to sneak in.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 06 Aug 2015, 16:47

tpals wrote:How about building a massive European immigration center in northern Africa? All applicants would have to be evaluated there with no exceptions. If someone is caught anywhere in Europe illegally and claiming asylum they would be shipped to the center (and be at the end of the queue) so they would be worse off trying to sneak in.

Interesting idea. The problem is that it would have to be built in Libya, which is basically now a failed state.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 06 Aug 2015, 21:36

https://fullfact.org/live/2015/aug/asyl ... n_eu-46985

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 06 Aug 2015, 21:41

What has that got to do with the wider arguments put to you about the longer term implications of allowing ever increasing numbers of these economic/climate refugees into any country in Europe in a world that has hit peak resources and where the mass migration of potentially hundreds of millions of such refugees is on the horizon?

Oh wait....you don't want to address those issues other than vague noises about being "optimistic" do you Biff Vernon.

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » 07 Aug 2015, 00:54

Little John wrote:Also, just to be absolutely crystal clear here;

I do not have a problem, per-se with those who would present an argument for little or no restrictions on these migrants settling here. My problem is the unwillingness of those who would present such an argument, then going on to address the inevitable implications of that position. In other words, I consider myself obliged to deal with an argument that is fully internally consistent, however much I may disagree with it. Where I take exception, though, is to an argument whose proponents are not willing to address or, even, acknowledge its logical implications. Especially so, if those implications are highly likely to deleteriously affect the long term sustainability of life in this country for the average citizen that already resides here.

As good as your last post was, this one really bites the bone.
Only the last sentence makes any sense at all.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 07 Aug 2015, 04:36

tpals wrote:How about building a massive European immigration center in northern Africa? All applicants would have to be evaluated there with no exceptions. If someone is caught anywhere in Europe illegally and claiming asylum they would be shipped to the center (and be at the end of the queue) so they would be worse off trying to sneak in.

Setting up such a camp could only be done with the legal agreement of one of those North African countries as could deporting migrants back there. Anyone with half a brain would say "You keep them, they're your problem now!" This is one of the reasons why Libya isn't doing anything to stem the flow now.

Most of the migrants are coming from Libya so that would be the logical place for such a camp. The only problem is that Libya is a hotbed of IS now and if you left a lot of very disgruntled people, bored stiff, in a camp in IS held territory it would be a fertile breeding ground for new terrorists. Not a good idea!

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 07 Aug 2015, 07:19

Why North Africa? Syria and Afghanistan are biggest sources of migration. Why not some other random location, say Lincolnshire?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 07 Aug 2015, 11:25

I’ve been thinking all day about how I can find the words for what we experienced yesterday.

An hours drive from my house, then half an hour on the Eurotunnel, and we were in the world’s worst refugee camp in terms of resources and conditions, yet we were welcomed with open arms. It’s amazing how only the people who have nothing really know how to share.

The ‘jungle’ (as the camp is known), is loosely and naturally divided by country, with every one of the worlds warzones represented. We walked through ‘Afghanistan’, ‘Syria,’ ‘Eritrea’ and ‘Sudan,’ all living peacefully alongside each other. This struck a chord with me – it was immediately clear that these people, fleeing war and persecution, want anything but conflict. The ‘mosque’ (a wooden frame), next to the church (some wood and tarpaulin, crowned with a wooden cross), right next to each other, representing that we are all the same, regardless of religion or race.

Nothing could have prepared me for hearing the stories of these people first hand.

A man from Afghanistan told me how he had fled his country with over 100 other people with the aim of walking together to England. Many people (mainly women and children) died along the way. They were so hungry they ate grass, and one night, walking through Bulgarian woodland in the dark, he tripped and a stick pierced through his eye. He spent 2 weeks in hospital in Sofia and the group left him behind. He carried on alone and had finally made it to Calais.

Then we met three Eritrean brothers aged 14, 13 and 10. They were alone. Sent by their parents to escape conscription to compulsory, indefinite military service, which is basically slave labour, they had made their way from Eritrea on foot.

And then, a 23-year-old from Dafur, Sudan. He told me that the Gangaweed had come to his village on horseback when he was 18, burnt it to the ground and brutally shot many people, including his dad, just for being black. He was arrested, accused of opposing the government, and put in prison for two years. As soon as he got out, he went back to where the village once was, desperate to find his two little brothers, little sister and mother. He was told his sister was alive and in a nearby town so he went looking for her. She wasn’t there. He searched towns and cities until he was again arrested, as travelling through the country is not permitted. Unable to face any more time in prison, he spent all the money he had to be smuggled to Libya. Here he started his journey, on foot and alone to England.

England..where everybody is always smiling and no one has problems, he told me. “Is it this cold in England?”, he asked in the middle of a sunny day in August. His expectations, and the reality of his life if he ever does make it to England, make my heart hurt.

He told me he doesn’t feel the hunger (the refugees get one free meal a day they have to queue for hours for), or the cold (I cant even begin to imagine winter in this camp), he just feels the pain of his lost family. Each time he spoke the word family, his voice broke and he put his head in his hands. Crying, he told me that every time he closes his eyes, he sees his mother, telling him he is a good boy, and that he is doing the right thing. ‘Why then, am I living like an animal?’ he asked me.

Every night he walks a few miles to the tunnel in an attempt to make it to England, although he told me he was taking a couple of days break from trying to allow his leg to heal. He proceeded to show me a huge bruise on his calf from where he had been hit by a police baton.

Many many people from Sudan tell the same story. Persecuted for being black, many have seen their entire family killed infront of their eyes.

We sat for ages in the Sudanese part of the camp. The guys here searched the surroundings to find the most mis-match selection of chairs, and even made us tea over an open fire. ‘You are our guests’ they told us, infront of the opening to their makeshift tents.

Yesterday I realised that the people in this camp don't WANT to come to England. They have no choice.

These people aren't migrants...these are REFUGEES. They can't go back, but they can't go forward, they are stuck, trying to create some kind of normal life from a bit of tarpaulin and a blanket.

And they are heroes. Their stories show more determination, strength and courage than anything I have ever heard from anyone in the UK. They should be an inspiration to us all...yet they are portrayed by our media as a drain on our society, scrounging our benefits. This couldn't be further from the truth. These people WANT to work, want to earn enough money to pay tax, and want to be given the opportunities they deserve.

These people are desperate. On the one hand we commemorate holocaust Memorial Day, yet on the other we turn away at people facing as extreme persecution as the Jews, right on our doorstep.

What the actual F--k?

A sign in the camp read 'we must all learn to live together like brothers, or we will die together like idiots'.

This needs to happen, and quick.

Many people didn't want us to take their picture, scared of the negative media representation, but also in case their families face repercussions under repressive governments back home. They are also ashamed; ashamed to be living in such an undignified manner.

We'll be going back next week to start filming a documentary, as sensitively as possible, with the aim of sharing the stories of these inspirational people. We're also stocking up on men's shoes, men's clothing, SIM cards, old phones (people are desperate to call home) and anything else people many be able to donate...

To be involved, to donate or to help us, like our campaign here:

https://www.facebook.com/theworldwidetribe

You can follow the journey in photos on instagram:

@theworldwidetribe

This is the link to our kickstarter campaign:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/75 ... ocumentary

We need to do something. Turning your back on this tragedy on our doorstep is literally unforgivable.

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 07 Aug 2015, 12:20

I honestly have spent many nightshifts listening to people talking about the lies they can tell to play the refugee system,

And which european country is the most stupid to fall for these lies, which european country has the best benefits system this was while working nightshifts in filton bristol .

I wish I had recorded the hours of conversations but even then your so daft and gullible you wouldnt understand

jonny2mad · Post by **jonny2mad** » 07 Aug 2015, 12:23

See a lot of the jobs Ive done as been with either succesful refugees or people working illegally in the uk, you need to do some jobs like that and expand your understanding of the world .

AutomaticEarth · Post by **AutomaticEarth** » 07 Aug 2015, 15:13

Watching the migrant mess on the Greek island of Kos. Lots of migrants fighting over resources. What a mess.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 07 Aug 2015, 15:34

biffvernon wrote:
....I’ve been thinking all day about how I can find the words for what we experienced yesterday.

An hours drive from my house, then half an hour on the Eurotunnel, and we were in the world’s worst refugee camp in terms of resources and conditions, yet we were welcomed with open arms. It’s amazing how only the people who have nothing really know how to share.....

You keep posting such links to emotive pieces Biff. Meanwhile, you assiduously continue to avoid explaining to the rest of us how letting these migrants into the UK will do anything other than to further encourage the tidal wave of humanity that will soon be on the move and, when that happens, at what point you will be prepared to say no more.

I know why you are doing this, by the way. To admit, for a moment, that there is actually a point at which you would have to say no more, would then force you to get your hands dirty and start debating about where that actual point would be. In others words, it would force you to acknowledge that there are some very hard moral choices to be made at some point and the only debate left is where that point lies.

peaceful_life · Post by **peaceful_life** » 07 Aug 2015, 23:43

The question of 'how many' is meaningless, it's as simplistic as 'numbers aren't a problem'.

Unless prevention, by means of restoration, is even considered, let alone implemented, then it doesn't really matter, because the ramifications of biospherical degradation will (continue to) exacerbate and accelerate the situation, for which....there isn't enough Machiavellian fences and bullets, or Rumis' open fields of love, to give any realistic answer to, at least....not one that left or right, can reasonably agree on in their ignorance.