Migrant watch (merged topic)

[jonny2mad]

You're a disgusting excuse for a human being J2M and a few more of you (you know who you are) need to rediscover the sense of compassion and humanity you may have once possessed.

No I dont, you need to lose your crazy notions of what being human is, humanism is christianity without the invisible man, and its the dominant philosophy being pushed out by a corrupt and dying system .

I reject both christianity and the foul thing that grew out of it .

I am tribal, having compassion for people who you are going to be in competition for resources with is suicidal .

yep they are desperate people the worlds full of desperate people so are the jails, burglers are desperate people trying to better their circumstance you dont have to help them at your own expense.

lets imagine you have too uks mine and yours, mine has borders and defends itself from invasion yours doesnt, I will live you my fluffy friend will die.

[peaceful_life]

'Despite the seemingly high cost, the reality is that the cost of inaction is far higher – some estimates put the annual cost of malnutrition to the global economy at several trillion dollars. Let me put this figure in a wider context; global annual military expenditure is an estimated $ 1.8 trillion, while within the OECD almost $260 billion is spent per year on agricultural support in member countries. Put another way, $267 billion corresponds to just 0.3 per cent of world economic output. Is this really too high a price to pay to help almost 800 million hungry people?'

'As the old adage goes, “A hungry man is an angry man”. Eradicating hunger is not only cost-effective, but it is also a vital investment in peace, security and sustainable development that benefits us all. A failure to make these additional investments will ultimately result in much higher costs for the global economy.'

http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentar ... index.html

This 'let them all in'....'KILL them all', is a false dichotomy and it's a cowardly one at that, it doesn't take that much effort to work out that bringing stability to troubled regions is best for everyone in the long, short and lasting ecological terms.
Attempting to shrink things to a narrow premise of 'there is no alternative' is an intellectually dishonest patsy for maintaining BAU, at least for some, for a short while longer, until, that is....the god of inevitability comes chapping at the door.

Up till now, this, like so many others of these threads, hasn't been a discussion, they've been a witch hunt.

[kenneal - lagger]

Pointless reading or posting on this site any more, it's not even pretending not to be the daily mail.

That's enough for me, ciao folks.

With one or two people not agreeing with the dozen or so who agree with you, you find justification for comparing this site with the Daily Mail? If that is the limit of your mental capacity I think we're better off without you.

If everyone agreed with each other I'm afraid I would leave as there would be nothing to discuss or learn. We'll welcome you back when you've grown up a bit!!

[kenneal - lagger]

The entire landmass of this planet is an island, most of which...you seem to know the sum total of nothing about, it's now north and south Sudan btw.

The whole ****ing planet is an island if you want to go one step further! What's that got to do with anything.

Hong Kong is an island and I wouldn't want to live there or anywhere else like it which is why I would prefer to keep this island as it is now, or at least not make it any less sustainable.

[kenneal - lagger]

We can't JUST lock 'em all out. We will have to do something with them which will involve humanely accommodating them somewhere where they have a chance to live properly - a Nauru solution is not a solution.

While we are doing that we must also do something about the things which are pushing them here in the first place. This, admittedly, will take some while to achieve.

It is interesting to note how many Middle Eastern people do not want to take refuge in the Middle East but come to the West for sanctuary. At the same time we have a small number of people of Middle Eastern culture who want to change the West into the Middle East.

[Snail]

Yep, the planet is too small and too full.

[kenneal - lagger]

Bollocks and bile from both sides, really! Although some can't see it.

The shooting and axing of people to death is not condoned by anyone on the board as far as I know, not even J2M. J2M is actually using these happenings as an argument to keep people out of this country. After all, we have no way of knowing the political affiliations of any of the people queueing up for entry in Calais.

[UndercoverElephant]

. What you have to do, is somehow square the circle of the complicity in condoning the utter, beyond the mail, garbage that's been typed in this thread, of course......you can't, because it's not about discussion, agreement or disagreement, all it is is a platform to spew and normalise such bile.

I don't think anybody has "condoned" the more extreme comments made by J2M.

There is a real problem here, and it is that given the current global situation - the coming collision between population growth, resource depletion and political instability - there are potentially millions of people who would come to the UK if they could get here and think they might be allowed to stay. And sooner or later we do have stop them from coming, or accept that the UK is going to also become an overpopulated hell-hole.

This is probably the worst situation, in terms of moral choices, that any of us have ever had to offer an opinion on. It's worse than the Chinese implementing and enforcing a brutal one child policy (which was also necessary). J2M's posts betray what looks like a callous and sadistic pleasure in saying these things - for him it is not a difficult decision. The same is not true of anybody else, IMO.

Put another way, J2M wouldn't want these migrants to come here even if it wasn't for the global situation, but everybody else would be happy to let them in.

[Little John]

I don't get it. If everyone knows that J2M is the extreme voice then what is the point of arguing every post he makes? Wouldn't that just derail the rest of the discussion?

Speaking only for myself, I am [currently] less concerned about someone like J2M simply because his opinions are so laughably, cartoonishly xenophobic and racist. What is of much more concern to me is precisely the kind of "respectable" racism of the average Daily-Meal reader because such views represent the rocky road to the kind of society the J2ms of this world would like to see. But, for the most part, I try to ignore the racism element completely since it so poisons debates that simply have to be had about population levels and environmental sustainability. In other words, I cannot let idiotic racist arguments dissuade me from making arguments about immigration just because they happen to have the most superficial of ven-diagram-overlaps with them which, in turn, causes a culturally conditioned and rather mindless knee-jerk reaction from a particular sub-set of the liberal intelligentsia. If I, and people like me, fail to speak out, then the far right will rise and rise and we will get precisely the outcome those same liberals profess to detest and fear the most. Similarly, I cannot let the mindless, knee-jerk liberal reactions dissuade me either.

[adam2]

I have deleted a number of personal insults and quotes thereof and replied thereto.
I have also deleted other posts that though acceptable in themselves no longer made sense after the other deletions.

[jonny2mad]

thats why I accuse the white left of being inverted, they embrace fascists if they have brown faces, they embrace rapists and pedophiles if the they are the right skin colour and they rape white kids

[3rdRock]

No it is not. I know for a fact that one of the mods on here finds my views pretty out there and have a gut feeling that another mod finds them equally disagreeable. I am also pretty sure that their still allowing me to post here does not mean they condone my views.

Your views are of a political nature and are, whether one agrees with them or not, acceptable. Political debate can only be healthy.

Racism can never be made to be acceptable regardless of the spin used to cover up the real intentions of the bigot in question.

As Einstein once said, "What a sad era when it is easier to smash an atom than a prejudice".

This is the 21st century. We should have left all of our old prejudices behind a long time ago.

[Little John]

No it is not. I know for a fact that one of the mods on here finds my views pretty out there and have a gut feeling that another mod finds them equally disagreeable. I am also pretty sure that their still allowing me to post here does not mean they condone my views.

Your views are of a political nature and are, whether one agrees with them or not, acceptable. Political debate can only be healthy.

Racism can never be made to be acceptable regardless of the spin used to cover up the real intentions of the bigot in question.

As Einstein once said, "What a sad era when it is easier to smash an atom than a prejudice".

This is the 21st century. We should have left all of our old prejudices behind a long time ago.

I don't think J2M's views are covered up, though. He is a racist and quite clear about that, He favours indigenous anglo-saxons over all other people. He considers that as the only tribe he has a moral duty to. Whatever else one may accuse him of, lacking in transparency and clarity of view is surely not one of them

[UndercoverElephant]

No it is not. I know for a fact that one of the mods on here finds my views pretty out there and have a gut feeling that another mod finds them equally disagreeable. I am also pretty sure that their still allowing me to post here does not mean they condone my views.

Your views are of a political nature

So are J2M's.

This is the 21st century. We should have left all of our old prejudices behind a long time ago.

Maybe "we" should, but "we" haven't.

J2M's views are indeed political, and they are actually relevant to an extent that I'd argue his presence here does serve a purpose. That purpose is not to condone those views, but merely to demonstrate that there are people out there who hold his combination of views. In other words - there are people out there who are aware of the limits to growth and who are seeking to capitalise on the inaction of mainstream politics to acknowledge those limits as a means of promoting a pre-existing racist and xenophobic agenda.

This is the problem that has been explained to Biff Vernon over and over again, but which Mr Vernon point blank refuses to accept: if you don't take a realistic approach to immigration issues in the light of the limits to growth then you are playing right into the hands of people like J2M. The refusal of the Biff Vernons of this world to get real about the effects of immigration on overpopulation at a national level are empowering the J2Ms of this world. For that reason alone, allowing J2M to continue posting is constructive. We may never get through to Biff Vernon, but there are plenty of other people with those tendencies who read these threads, and if a few of them wake up and smell the roses then that is a good thing.

Banning J2M is akin to pretending people like him don't exist. Out of sight, out of mind. But they do exist, and if we're going to stop more and more of them existing in the future then we need to acknowledge the parts of what they say that are reasonable while rejecting the parts that aren't. J2M wants to mix the reasonable and unreasonable together. He has alluded to it earlier this evening, by suggesting xenophobia is justified by the limits to growth (although he didn't actually offer the argument, so it can't be debunked).

The point is this: banning the expression of his sort of views would arguably give a false sense of security. We need to be aware of the presence of such people, because there are likely to be more of them in the future, especially if people like Biff are ever allowed to implement the insane policies they claim to believe in. If we allowed unlimited immigration, the UK would be over-run with people like J2M long before it was over-run with immigrants.

[jonny2mad]

its interesting that you want to supress my views and wont answer my questions about the anti white racism of the left.

I wont vote labour because as a white working class person I know that labour does not represent me and it has a record of protecting people of colour that abuse children with my skin colour .

The torys protect their class, and the labour party covers up the industrial scale abuse of white children by people with brown skin because the left are racists .

Thats why you have labour councillors actively covering up for grooming gangs in rotherham , closing investigations getting the investigators in and making personal threats that they would set the gangs on them.

I dont think the labour party would have done that if the kids had been chinese or asian and their abusers white, thats racism but your to dishonest to admit it