Alternatives to Austerity- a timely report

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Little John

Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:Limits to growth means fewer resources and a constraint on growth and most likely a reduction in economic activity. If there is less economic activity then there have to be some cuts of some form. It cannot be that the state consumes for ever a greater and greater proportion of the GDP - coming to a point at which it goes over 100%.

Defining austerity as cuts in government spending of some form.
We probably all agree with that. It's not the cuts but the form of cuts that counts. If we were all in it together, with cuts first imposed on those with most, then we'd sign up. The sum total of happiness is maximised when relative wealth is minimised. Absolute wealth is not so important.
You have just described, in a nutshell, what it is to be human, for the majority of humans.

Sadly, there are a minority of selfish ***** around, who F--k it up for the majority. Sometimes those selfish ***** are crudely and unambiguously what they are. Sometimes, though, they come in the guise of well educated well spoken people like our Mr Hemming. Such people are the most unforgivable selfish ***** of all, since they should know better, but choose to be selfish ***** nonetheless.
peaceful_life
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Post by peaceful_life »

johnhemming2 wrote:Limits to growth means fewer resources and a constraint on growth and most likely a reduction in economic activity. If there is less economic activity then there have to be some cuts of some form. It cannot be that the state consumes for ever a greater and greater proportion of the GDP - coming to a point at which it goes over 100%.

Defining austerity as cuts in government spending of some form.
Firstly, we would do well to stop referencing the diversity of life itself as 'resources', especially when such compartmentalised operating systems of consumptive growth strips that diversity above and beyond the cyclical replenishment rates of life itself, this in-turn has lead to catastrophic ecological systems collapse and potential runaway climate change, both of which require ever increasing amounts of declining NET energy from the same operating systems in attempting to mitigate against it's own consequences. These consequences are the inevitable and direct product of a cultural narrative which views life as 'resources' and simply renders it as an inert material conduit to facilitate an abstract financial exchange and maintain delusional notions of privilege.

Obviously, none of that, is, or ever was, sustainable and yet.....in at least the case of Greece, you insist that they have some kind moral obligation to pay back the debts incurred from an operating system which now has a, as you yourself have just stated.....

'constraint on growth and most likely a reduction in economic activity'

The contradiction of acknowledging the limits of the finite physical reality, whilst simultaneously championing the pseudo morality of the infinitely abstract, is clear to see...and from someone educated on PPE and a degree in physics ( your comment on energy production has been removed I see), it's not possible for you to miss these contradictions, unless of course you actually believe that by conflating the two will somehow justify 'austerity', It doesn't. The financial debts from a system of exponential consumptive growth, cannot and never will be paid once the velocity of that growth decreases, it is a physical and mathematical impossibility, unless of course....Oxford actually taught you that money is energy, which I doubt and low entropy isn't high entropy.

'Austerity', in the context that you're forwarding it, John, is simply the political tool of social engineering, no bad thing in and of itself, however...the direction of this austerity is founded on deceit and does absolutely nothing to encourage the sparks of human creativity that we desperately need for bringing about systemic change, yes we need to use less, but we won't do that by subjugating and punishing folk, indeed..this will have the adverse effect as folk become ever more desperate and angry at the inequity of it all, moreover....it's wasting time and attention needing focused on activity of educating and employing ourselves in repairing the primary biospherical systems, from which we derive all else, because if we don't do that... there will be no delusional perceptions of privilege to cling to.

We need cuts to the problematic and investment to the positive across the whole of the spectrum.
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Post by snow hope »

Well said peaceful life! +10
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Post by Tarrel »

I think we all know what "Austerity" means. (I'm giving it a capital "A", as in "Conservative". In a resource-constrained world in which the debt and pollution trains are rapidly heading towards the buffers, we have to make a choice:

Do we practice austerity, in which we endeavour to live within ecological and economic limits, and the State does its best to share the pain equitably among all citizens, and provides principled leadership to encourage people to rise to the challenge (think 2nd World War)?

Or do we practice "Austerity", in which the challenges presented by resource-constraint are used as a background for the State to peddle an ideological agenda of; "Everyone For Themselves - if you can't make it on your own, tough!", using shrill chants such as "Budget For Working People!" and "Making Work Pay!".

Whether we choose "A" or "a" depends on whether we see the current challenges as a predicament or a problem to be solved. If we're in a predicament (i.e. we're on an ecological / economic runaway train and we need to find a way of slowing it down without catapulting everyone through the windscreen), then austerity is the only way. If we're trying to solve a problem (i.e. a temporary productivity issue which can be solved by creating Wealth At The Top and letting it trickle down through McJob creation), then "Austerity" appears to be one solution, with the added attraction of that "Wealth At The Top" bit.

The government appears to be trying to solve a problem, whereas anyone even partly informed about what climate scientists and geologists are telling us, knows we are in a predicament.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
peaceful_life
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Post by peaceful_life »

Tarrel wrote:I think we all know what "Austerity" means. (I'm giving it a capital "A", as in "Conservative". In a resource-constrained world in which the debt and pollution trains are rapidly heading towards the buffers, we have to make a choice:

Do we practice austerity, in which we endeavour to live within ecological and economic limits, and the State does its best to share the pain equitably among all citizens, and provides principled leadership to encourage people to rise to the challenge (think 2nd World War)?

Or do we practice "Austerity", in which the challenges presented by resource-constraint are used as a background for the State to peddle an ideological agenda of; "Everyone For Themselves - if you can't make it on your own, tough!", using shrill chants such as "Budget For Working People!" and "Making Work Pay!".

Whether we choose "A" or "a" depends on whether we see the current challenges as a predicament or a problem to be solved. If we're in a predicament (i.e. we're on an ecological / economic runaway train and we need to find a way of slowing it down without catapulting everyone through the windscreen), then austerity is the only way. If we're trying to solve a problem (i.e. a temporary productivity issue which can be solved by creating Wealth At The Top and letting it trickle down through McJob creation), then "Austerity" appears to be one solution, with the added attraction of that "Wealth At The Top" bit.

The government appears to be trying to solve a problem, whereas anyone even partly informed about what climate scientists and geologists are telling us, knows we are in a predicament.
There is no reason why a transition has to be painful, it's the continual regurgitation that BAU is somehow still obtainable, when in reality it's just a simulation of BAU on an ever contracting basis back to it's central nucleus of control, it's this which exacerbates the feeling of being excluded from the musical chairs of social mobility, the financial music gets louder and faster as the societal chance chairs are pulled out at an ever increasing pace, ok...we know all that, but here's the rub (which we also know, but don't often voice), all that spinning and chasing around within the game wasn't/isn't/won't-be any good for us anyway, a system that we cannot maintain was making us ill anyway and we've the demonstrable sites of pollution 'dead-zones' to prove it.

So option A* is the only thing close to realistic route anyway and before we can even begin to live within ecological limits, we must first start to replenish them, which entails a LOT of work in itself with no shortage of keeping ourselves occupied. Option B* Isn't an option.

PS....it's not the best word for our collective predicament at all.

'austerity (n.)
mid-14c., "sternness, harshness," from Old French austerite "harshness, cruelty" (14c.) and directly from Late Latin austeritatem (nominative austeritas), from austerus (see austere). Of severe self-discipline, from 1580s; hence "severe simplicity" (1875); applied during World War II to national policies limiting non-essentials as a wartime economy.'


'austere (adj.)
early 14c., from Old French austere (Modern French austère) and directly from Latin austerus "dry, harsh, sour, tart," from Greek austeros "bitter, harsh," especially "making the tongue dry" (originally used of fruits, wines), metaphorically "austere, harsh," from PIE *saus- "dry" (cognates: Greek auos "dry," auein "to dry"). Use in English is figurative: "stern, severe, very simple." Related: Austerely.'


'adaptation (n.)
c. 1600, "action of adapting," from French adaptation, from Late Latin adaptationem (nominative adaptatio), noun of action from past participle stem of adaptare (see adapt). Meaning "condition of being adapted" is from 1670s. Sense of "modification of a thing to suit new conditions" is from 1790. Biological sense first recorded 1859 in Darwin's writings.'

Option A*, adaptation.
Last edited by peaceful_life on 10 Jul 2015, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Little John wrote:Sadly, there are a minority of selfish ***** around, who **** it up for the majority. Sometimes those selfish ***** are crudely and unambiguously what they are. Sometimes, though, they come in the guise of well educated well spoken people like our Mr Hemming. Such people are the most unforgivable selfish ***** of all, since they should know better, but choose to be selfish ***** nonetheless.
How does making this untruthful argument become any stronger through it being also potentially abusive.

I have argued for some time that it is in the interests of the poorer greeks to go with the flow on what the Eurozone and IMF want because the alternative is much worse.

The Greek Government got elected on the basis that they did not need to do this, but have now changed their mind.

Calling me selfish because I am arguing for a particular solution is not based in any rational argument. I am not directly affected by Greece although I personally would prefer a calmer solution with fewer riots.

I am not a supporter of communism. That should not surprise anyone.
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

johnhemming2 wrote:I am not directly affected by Greece although I personally would prefer a calmer solution with fewer riots.
I suspect you 'ain't seen nothing yet'.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and I suspect that many disenfranchised Greeks will resort to violence in a last ditch attempt to convince the Troika of the stupidity in continuing with their draconian policies. :(
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Post by Tarrel »

3rdRock wrote:
johnhemming2 wrote:I am not directly affected by Greece although I personally would prefer a calmer solution with fewer riots.
I suspect you 'ain't seen nothing yet'.

Desperate times call for desperate measures and I suspect that many disenfranchised Greeks will resort to violence in a last ditch attempt to convince the Troika of the stupidity in continuing with their draconian policies. :(
I wouldn't blame them. The past 48 hours has seen an affront to democracy. Last Sunday the Greek people voted decisively to reject a proposal based on more austerity. Now the Greek parliament is poised to vote an even more draconian proposal through. I thought they were supposed to represent their people?

As this situation has unfolded I have found myself giving Tsipras the benefit of the doubt, waiting for him to make the "check mate" move that nobody spotted. But I'm now beginning to wonder if he is panicking and rudderless.

Tsipras is exhibiting a failure of leadership of the first order. He has failed to articulate a plan for the survival of Greece, with or without the Euro. He is reacting to events as they unfold day by day. Has he given up?
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

Tarrel wrote:Tsipras is exhibiting a failure of leadership of the first order. He has failed to articulate a plan for the survival of Greece, with or without the Euro. He is reacting to events as they unfold day by day. Has he given up?
As the situation unfolds, I'm almost tempted to believe that he's accepted a 'personal sweetener'.
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Post by Tarrel »

3rdRock wrote:
Tarrel wrote:Tsipras is exhibiting a failure of leadership of the first order. He has failed to articulate a plan for the survival of Greece, with or without the Euro. He is reacting to events as they unfold day by day. Has he given up?
As the situation unfolds, I'm almost tempted to believe that he's accepted a 'personal sweetener'.
Well, if that was the case, he would deserve to be thrown to the wolves.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Tarrel wrote: He has failed to articulate a plan for the survival of Greece, with or without the Euro.
Maybe, given the obduracy of the powers that be, there isn't one. Or do you know better?
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

Tarrel wrote:
3rdRock wrote:
Tarrel wrote:Tsipras is exhibiting a failure of leadership of the first order. He has failed to articulate a plan for the survival of Greece, with or without the Euro. He is reacting to events as they unfold day by day. Has he given up?
As the situation unfolds, I'm almost tempted to believe that he's accepted a 'personal sweetener'.
Well, if that was the case, he would deserve to be thrown to the wolves.

Agreed and I sincerely hope that I'm wrong.
Tarrel
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Post by Tarrel »

(Perhaps this needs to be migrated to the "Greece Watch" thread).

There's no magic pill. A lot of Greeks are facing real hardship. They need to put themselves on the equivalent of a war footing. Cuba faced a disaster when the Soviet Union collapsed. They responded by growing food, in towns and in the country, in every space available. They survived and are probably the better for it.

Tsipras needs to be honest with the Greek people and tell them that a further deal with the EU is not the answer.
Engage in geo-engineering. Plant a tree today.
Snail

Post by Snail »

When the radical left turn out not to be very radical then...

Time to face facts folks.

What happened in Greece is actually good from our point-of-view: we've learned something.
Tsipras needs to be honest with the Greek people

I don't think that's going to happen.

--

An opportunity lost for Greece
Little John

Post by Little John »

It Tsipras back-slides on the democratic will of the people, there could be blood on the streets of Athens before the year is out. It could lead to full blown insurrection. It should lead to that, God help them.
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