Greece Watch...

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 09 Jul 2015, 23:04

UndercoverElephant wrote:No they aren't. They are in exactly the same situation.

I have not read wikipedia on NPV, but here is a link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_present_value

There is a massive difference depending upon payments schedules. If someone is given some money with zero interest payable over 1,000 years it is almost as good as a gift.

Adjusting the timing of payments and the interest rates means that the debt is payable off. It may not be paid off because governments decide to borrow more, but that is a separate issue. The UK has had sovereign debt for a long time (centuries), but that has not necessarily been a problem.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 10 Jul 2015, 07:46

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... deal-nears

Greece debt crisis: Athens accepts harsh austerity as bailout deal nears

Greek cabinet backs a 13-page package of reforms and spending cuts worth €13bn to secure third bailout and modest debt writeoff.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 10 Jul 2015, 08:55

I am beginning to now wonder if Varoufakis jumped as much as he was pushed on the basis that this kind of semi-capitulatory deal would be struck and he knew that he wouldn't have been able to bring himself to put his name on it.

If the choice, in the end, was to capitulate or to walk and they have, in the end, capitulated, then they will come to regret this day even more than the privations of walking would have done.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 08:59

Who knows. This was always likely to happen as the alternative is much worse for those dependent on the Greek state.

If they wanted to leave the Euro they would have to plan for that rather than let it be forced upon them.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 10 Jul 2015, 11:10

TPTB have them/us by the balls....

The entire financial system has been corrupted and the banksters are winning. I am leaning more and more towards accepting that the only way to rectify the global financial situation is the need for revolution - how sad that we have got to this point.

John Hemming - well done for continuing to argue your viewpoint in here despite some pretty close to the knuckle replies. But I don't agree with most of your points of view as you are too closely embroiled in the BAU environment - the system itself. I hope the various contributors on this site have opened your eyes to realising that there is another very real agenda going on in the world and it is not in any of our interests, other than the 1%....

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 14:38

snow hope wrote:TPTB have them/us by the balls....

It is not a good idea to try to fight the laws of mathematics.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 15:02

Looks like the Greeks have agreed to a more austere package than was rejected last Sunday in the referendum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econ ... -deal.html

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 15:07

What does the Guardian say?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... re-purpose

Five months of brinkmanship has caused untold damage to the Greek economy for no purpose whatsoever.

Those who have watched this thread may remember the arguments as to whether Varoufakis is an idiot or not.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 10 Jul 2015, 19:51

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... n-eurozone

Greeks facing day of judgment in struggle to stay in eurozone

Greece could be cut loose and plunged into financial collapse if it fails to win over EU leaders at a weekend of summits to decide its fate.

Tsipras told members of his own party that he had no mandate to take Greece out of the euro and said: “We are all in this together”.

Now where have I heard that phrase before?

Tarrel · Post by **Tarrel** » 10 Jul 2015, 19:56

Greece could be cut loose and plunged into financial collapse

Seems to me they are already in financial collapse. Just as a life support machine maintains the illusion of life, so the bailout packages of the last few years have maintained the illusion of business as usual.

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » 10 Jul 2015, 20:05

johnhemming2 wrote:What does the Guardian say?
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... re-purpose

Five months of brinkmanship has caused untold damage to the Greek economy for no purpose whatsoever.
Those who have watched this thread may remember the arguments as to whether Varoufakis is an idiot or not.

He resigned before the government caved in to more austerity measures. Does that make him an idiot ?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Jul 2015, 20:31

He's brought to public attention that a great many of the most eminent academic economists in the world think that the neo-liberal agenda is a bad idea. He has done the world a great service.

And now he has time to write about it in the Gaurdian: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ief-grexit

Which parts of that article suggest he might be an idiot? To my mind he seems to be spot on.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 21:10

There is a lot of rubbish in it.

Eg at the end

my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency

It is also dishonest as it does not go into the details of the arguments about retirement at 50 etc.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 10 Jul 2015, 21:11

Catweazle wrote:He resigned before the government caved in to more austerity measures. Does that make him an idiot ?

What makes him an idiot is all of the things that happened before he resigned and the government agreed to something worse that he had been offered previously.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 11 Jul 2015, 07:22

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... n-eurozone

Greek MPs back new austerity plan as nation faces day of judgment

Despite a big parliamentary vote in favour of a deal with its creditors, Greece could be cut loose if it fails to win over EU leaders at a weekend of summits

In the early hours of Saturday morning the Greek parliament voted to back Tsipras’s proposals. Despite a rebellion by some of his own MPs, Tsipras was given the backing of 250 out of 300 MPs to negotiate this weekend.