Greece Watch...

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Jul 2015, 10:45

johnhemming2 wrote:Sigmar Gabriel who I referred to earlier (as also not being pale blue) is the leader of the German SPD.

I accept that most of the posters to this forum disagree with me.

The underlying question for Greece is whether to accept things like charging VAT on hotels in the Aegean Islands, not allowing people to retire at 50 etc etc

No it is not. That question is a side-show that is somewhere between marginally relevant and completely irrelevant. By elevating it to "the underlying question" you are ignoring the main point, which is that Greece's debt is unsustainable, and also ignoring the fact that Greece's debt was largely foisted upon it by the immoral actions of bankers who privatised their profits and socialised their losses.

You are trying to make this out as "all the fault of Greece" and in doing so you are nothing more than a recycling machine for the propaganda of the bankers and the european elites.

Yes, we disagree with you, and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself, because you are not listening and should know better.

The changes you are suggesting are not going to save Greece. They do not offer Greece a way out.

What is clear, however, is that if the Greek government to not agree to the reforms above then Greece will continue suffering more.

OK, now I am losing my will to treat you reasonably. You are just a propaganda mouthpiece.

Greece will continue to suffer whether it agrees to those reforms or not. The only way it will stop suffering is if the euro-authorities admit that Greek debt is unsustainable and writes a lot of it off.

Did you hear that? Or are your fingers still firmly inserted in your ears?

The issue of the sustainability of Greek Sovereign debt is a separate issue.

No it is not. It is the central, key issue, and if it is not addressed then there is no point in Greece agreeing to further austerity.

It does not have to be resolved now.

Oh yes it f***ing does, John Hemming.

Politically it cannot be resolved in isolation as it also raises questions about Ireland and other countries.

"Can't be"? It *MUST* be. You are quite clearly stating that Greece should be made to pay an unpayable price as a warning to other countries! You are stating that European politics regarding other countries can trump economic reality in Greece.

I am out of here. I am going on holiday tomorrow and I have had enough of trying to get through to John Hemming. What a waste of time.

You're brainwashed, mate.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 08 Jul 2015, 11:07

The European Parliament Debate - live and heated!

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-33411698

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 08 Jul 2015, 11:23

John, you are obviously familiar with the machinations of government - you were, after all, an MP.

What you don't seem to appreciate are the hardships which many of the poorest, sick and unemployed people in Greece are having to endure as a direct result of the draconian austerity measures currently in place.

I'd suggest you spend some time exploring the meaning of the words 'empathy' and 'compassion' before your next post.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Jul 2015, 11:40

Funny to hear about pensions from someone who benefits from the MP's pension scheme! It's a lot better than mine and mine is a lot better than most Greeks'.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Jul 2015, 11:48

3rdRock wrote:The European Parliament Debate - live and heated!

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-33411698

Where is a feed with simultaneous translations?

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 08 Jul 2015, 12:20

biffvernon wrote:
3rdRock wrote:The European Parliament Debate - live and heated!

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-33411698
Where is a feed with simultaneous translations?

It works for me. Translation currently available in real time.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2015, 12:44

UndercoverElephant wrote:
It does not have to be resolved now.
Oh yes it ******* does, John Hemming.

Why does it have to be resolved now?

As it stands what matters to Greece (I would assume) is what they have to pay in cash to creditors. Almost any arrangement that will be proposed in the short term will involve them being allowed not to pay anything to creditors (beyond the creditors loaning additional money to cover this) for at least a year.

So why the rush?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2015, 12:45

3rdRock wrote:What you don't seem to appreciate are the hardships which many of the poorest, sick and unemployed people in Greece are having to endure as a direct result of the draconian austerity measures currently in place.

The Greeks, however, are using that as an argument to retain early retirement and VAT exemptions for the Aegean.

It is a form of human shield approach to finance.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Jul 2015, 13:03

johnhemming2 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
It does not have to be resolved now.
Oh yes it ******* does, John Hemming.
Why does it have to be resolved now?

Because if it is not resolved now, it is never going to be resolved. The political reasons for not resolving it are not going to go away.

As it stands what matters to Greece (I would assume) is what they have to pay in cash to creditors.

No, John. What matters to Greece is to see some light at the end of the tunnel, instead of just an endless tunnel. If all they are being offered by the EU authorities is an endless tunnel then, from their point of view, there is no reason to submit to the conditions the euro-authorities are trying to impose. What you are suggesting is that "as it stands what matters to Greece is that they can continue to progress along the tunnel." The Greek people have had enough of that tunnel. They voted on Sunday to defy the euro-authorities unless some light at the end was offered. It has not been offered.

So why the rush?

The Greek economy, and living standards, have been spiralling downwards since 2008. It is now 2015, and there is no end in sight. This is not "a rush". It is a country at the end of its tether after 7 years of crushing austerity.

The correct question is "Why now?" and the answer is because the current situation is such that the game of bluff that has been played for the last 7 years is now over. Greece has been forced into an unsustainable position, and that meant that sooner or later a crisis point would be reached where a continuation of the same unsustainable policies could not be sustained. It should be abundantly obvious to anyone who is paying attention that we have reached that crisis point.

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2015, 13:10

UndercoverElephant wrote:Because if it is not resolved now, it is never going to be resolved. The political reasons for not resolving it are not going to go away.

As it stands what matters to Greece (I would assume) is what they have to pay in cash to creditors.
No, John. What matters to Greece is to see some light at the end of the tunnel, instead of just an endless tunnel. If all they are being offered by the EU authorities is an endless tunnel then, from their point of view, there is no reason to submit to the conditions the euro-authorities are trying to impose. What you are suggesting is that "as it stands what matters to Greece is that they can continue to progress along the tunnel." The Greek people have had enough of that tunnel. They voted on Sunday to defy the euro-authorities unless some light at the end was offered. It has not been offered.

I think the Greek Government have now accepted in their most recent letter to the EZ that the issue of the total debt is going to be left until later discussions.

There really is no reason why everything has to be sorted out now. What is needed is a stable arrangement for a few years. The next step can be worked out later.

Given that SYRIZA now accept this perspective I am not going to argue it further.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Jul 2015, 13:46

johnhemming2 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:Because if it is not resolved now, it is never going to be resolved. The political reasons for not resolving it are not going to go away.

As it stands what matters to Greece (I would assume) is what they have to pay in cash to creditors.
No, John. What matters to Greece is to see some light at the end of the tunnel, instead of just an endless tunnel. If all they are being offered by the EU authorities is an endless tunnel then, from their point of view, there is no reason to submit to the conditions the euro-authorities are trying to impose. What you are suggesting is that "as it stands what matters to Greece is that they can continue to progress along the tunnel." The Greek people have had enough of that tunnel. They voted on Sunday to defy the euro-authorities unless some light at the end was offered. It has not been offered.
I think the Greek Government have now accepted in their most recent letter to the EZ that the issue of the total debt is going to be left until later discussions.

There really is no reason why everything has to be sorted out now. What is needed is a stable arrangement for a few years.

Stable as in "cruising through a tunnel with no light at the end"?

That suits the euro-authorities, but it condemns the Greek people to hopelessness. It is quite obvious that you could not care less about that, though. If you, for one moment, looked at this situation from the point of view of the Greek people, you could not be saying the things you are saying.

The next step can be worked out later.

If I was a Greek person or a Greek politician, I would tell you exactly where to stuff that. And over 60% of them did precisely that on Sunday.

When and where did Syriza say that the issue of total debt is no longer crucial/immediate?

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2015, 13:51

In their letter to the EZ.

They welcome discussions. Which is the right thing to do. There is no sense jumping off a cliff because you are worried that in a couple of years time you might be in a car crash.[/img]

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Jul 2015, 14:05

That letter is demanding reforms from the Troika to "make the debt sustainable". It is demanding partial write-off of the debt (what else could that mean?).

johnhemming2 · Post by **johnhemming2** » 08 Jul 2015, 14:49

Yes, but they are accepting that the discussions about this will be later not as part of the temporary support scheme.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » 08 Jul 2015, 16:10

johnhemming2 wrote:Yes, but they are accepting that the discussions about this will be later not as part of the temporary support scheme.

As far as I am aware, until now the Germans have not accepted that those discussions are going to happen at all. The German policy is to not allow any write off of Greek debt because of the precedent it would set.

For the Germans (and ECB/EU) to accept that this has to happen eventually - but to accept this now - is a crucial concession. The exact detail of precisely how much debt is going to be written off does not need to be decided now, but acceptance that some of it will be, does.