Greece Watch...

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3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

An open letter in the Guardian this evening ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... -the-world
Angela Merkel must act now for Greece, Germany and the world
We urge Chancellor Merkel and the troika to consider a course correction to avoid further disaster and enable Greece to remain in the eurozone.

The Greek government is being asked to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Sadly, the bullet will not only kill off Greece’s future in Europe.

The collateral damage will kill the eurozone as a beacon of hope, democracy and prosperity, and could lead to far-reaching economic consequences across the world.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

So in the Red corner we have Heiner Flassbeck Former state secretary, German federal ministry of finance, Professor Thomas Piketty Professor of economics, Paris School of Economics, Professor Jeffrey Sachs Professor of sustainable development, professor of health policy and management, and director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University, Professor Dani Rodrik Ford Foundation professor of international political economy, Harvard Kennedy School, Professor Simon Wren-Lewis Professor of economic policy, Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford.

And in the Pale Blue corner we have John Hemming, Angela Merkel and George Osborne.

The second letter is rather good to, but Sir Richard Jolly is yet another academic with a cv longer than the average man's arm.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Pale blue is the wrong description for both Sigmar Gabriel and myself.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

johnhemming2 wrote: The obvious thing to have done was for the Greeks to agree to the Troika proposals..
Why is putting a gun to one's head and pulling the trigger an obvious thing to do? The Troika is not offering Greece a way out. It is offering punitive "austerity" and the shackles of ever more unsustainable debt. For Greece to agree to this would be utter madness.

There are only two ways out: a very significant write-off of Greek debt that has not been offered by the creditors, or default on the entire debt and leave the eurozone.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

John Hemming, you really are talking total nonsense.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... ill-needed
Greece would face an unsustainable level of debt by 2030 even if it signs up to the full package of tax and spending reforms demanded of it, according to unpublished documents compiled by its three main creditors.

The documents, drawn up by the so-called troika of lenders, support Greece’s argument that it needs substantial debt relief for a lasting economic recovery. They show that, even after 15 years of sustained strong growth, the country would face a level of debt that the International Monetary Fund deems unsustainable.

The documents show that the IMF’s baseline estimate – the most likely outcome – is that Greece’s debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030, even if it signs up to the package of tax and spending reforms demanded. That is well above the 110% the IMF regards as sustainable given Greece’s debt profile, a level set in 2012. The country’s debt level is currently 175% and likely to go higher because of its recent slide back into recession.
The IMF has made it abundantly clear that it believes Greece's debts are unsustainable. If it was just the IMF responsible for dealing with this crisis, instead of the ECB and EU as well, then a significant chunk of Greece's debt would already have been written off, and Greece could be heading towards recovery.

But the ECB and European Commission won't allow this to happen for political reasons. Such a move is being vetoed by the Euro-authorities because it would set what they see as a dangerous precedent, and it would be politically explosive in Germany. It sets a dangerous precedent because there are other countries in the eurozone who have been denied debt relief and there is a worry that if some of Greece's debts are written off then Ireland, Spain and Italy may eventually demand similar treatment.

Greece is just the worst example of several "deficit states" within the eurozone. The underlying problem is a structural defect of the eurozone itself and Greece did not create that. A load of politicians and european bureaucrats did it, and they were motivated by political ambition rather than economic rationalism.

The fact that Greece is partially to blame (that's why it is the worst example) is not actually relevant at this point. Once you accept that Greece's debt is unsustainable and that a partial write-off of that debt is being blocked for political reasons then arguing about how Greece got into this mess is beside the point. Unsustainable means UNSUSTAINABLE, and agreeing to take on more debt, and to implement punitive austerity which will cause further economic contraction, makes absolutely no sense at all.

I cannot understand why you don't understand this. Yes, some more reforms are required in Greece, but unless the European authorities are willing to admit in return that Greece's debt is unsustainable and agree to write some of it off, regardless of the political consequences, then the only rational course of action for Greece is to refuse to accept the Troika's conditions and let events take whatever course they take.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

johnhemming2 wrote:Pale blue is the wrong description for...myself.
So what's the right description, John?

Everything you've posted on this topic suggests to me that you are politically centre-right, somewhere around the left wing of the tory party.
peaceful_life
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Post by peaceful_life »

'So one can turn the Varoufakis argument on its head. Growth was not only the RESULT of the existence of demand recycling mechanisms for surplus countries – the existence of recycling mechanisms for surplus countries could also be explained by the existence of growth. Growth made the recycling easier…. And growth was crucially a result of abundant energy (not part of the Varoufakis explanation).'

http://www.feasta.org/2015/07/07/the-gr ... de-simple/

So the rules of then cannot apply to any realistic negotiations of the now.
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:...instinctively attracted to whatever he considers to be the centre of gravity of power.
"Tony Blair Syndrome"
Little John

Post by Little John »

yes
raspberry-blower
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Post by raspberry-blower »

Jonathan Cook: How the media discredit Greek democracy
Jonathan Cook wrote:The EU elites, referred to as “creditors” but actually representing Europe’s large financial institutions, are repeatedly described as “mainstream”. That is presumably supposed to confer legitimacy on them and suggest they represent Europe and Europeans. But there is nothing “mainstream” about these unaccountable elites trying to bring about “regime change” in Greece by bleeding the country of hope. If they succeed and Syriza goes down, Greece will end up with real extremists – either the neo-Nazis of Golden Dawn or the country’s crony elites who got Greece into this mess, with the aid of the wider European elites, in the first place. What “mainstream” opinion in the rest of Europe thinks about Greece, Syriza or the European project is impossible to gauge because most European countries are too terrified to put such questions to their electorates in the way Syriza has done.
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
Little John

Financial Nonsense Overload

Post by Little John »

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e42327.htm
By Dmitry Orlov

....As most of you probably know, Greece is saddled with more debt than it can possibly hope to ever repay. Documents recently released by the International Monetary Fund conceded this point. A lot of this bad debt was incurred in order to pay back German and French banks for previous bad debt. The debt was bad to begin with, because it was made based on very faulty projections of Greece's potential for economic growth. The lenders behaved irresponsibly in offering the loans in the first place, and they deserve to lose their money.

However, Greece's creditors refuse to consider declaring all of this bad debt null and void—not because of anything having to do with Greece, which is small enough to be forgiven much of its bad debt without causing major damage, but because of Spain, Italy and others, which, if similarly forgiven, would blow up the finances of the entire European Union. Thus, it is rather obvious that Greece is being punished to keep other countries in line. Collective punishment of a country—in the form of extracting payments for onerous debt incurred under false pretenses—is bad enough; but collective punishment of one country to have it serve as a warning to others is beyond the pale.

Add to this a double-helping of double standards. The IMF won't lend to Greece because it requires some assurance of repayment; but it will continue to lend to the Ukraine, which is in default and collapsing rapidly, without any such assurances because, you see, the decision is a political one. The European Central Bank no longer accepts Greek bonds as collateral because, you see, it considers them to be junk; but it will continue to suck in all sorts of other financial garbage and use it to spew forth Euros without comment, keeping other European countries on financial life support simply because they aren't Greece. The German government insists on Greek repayment, considering this stance to be highly moral, ignoring the fact that Germany is the defaultiest country in all of Europe. If Germany were not repeatedly forgiven its debt it would be much poorer, and in much worse shape, than Greece.

The brazen hypocrisy of all this cannot but have a destabilizing effect on Europe's politics, with the political center cratering and being replaced with radical left-right coalitions. Note how quickly France's right-wing presidential front-runner Marine Le Pen applauded the result of the Greek referendum organized by Greece's left-wing government. The disgust with officialdom that pervades the European Union is beginning to transcend political boundaries, making for strange bedfellows.

In the end, finance—at any level—has to be about rules and numbers, or it becomes about nonsense. Break enough of your own rules, and your money turns to garbage, because in a world where money is debt and debt is garbage, money is garbage. But there is a proven method for solving this problem and moving on: it's called national bankruptcy. Greece is bankrupt; if its resolution brings on the bankruptcy of Spain, Italy and others, and if that in turn bankrupts the entire Eurozone, then that's exactly what must happen.

But something else might happen instead. The Eurocrats are already appalled by the Greek show of democracy, and will work hard to derail any such democratic effort in the future using all of the means of political and economic manipulation at their disposal—all simply to muddle along for a bit longer, making the end-game, when it finally comes, all the more painful......
3rdRock

Post by 3rdRock »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/j ... g-collapse
Greece given days to agree bailout deal or face banking collapse and euro exit

Greece has 48 hours to strike a new bailout deal with its eurozone creditors or face a banking collapse, a humanitarian emergency, and the start of an exit from the single currency, European leaders decided on Tuesday evening.

Unless Athens presents convincing details entailing more austerity as the basis for its third bailout in five years, all 28 national EU leaders, not just those of the eurozone, are to gather in Brussels on Sunday in emergency session to discuss how to contain the fallout from Greece’s financial collapse.

“We have a Grexit scenario prepared in detail,” said Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European commission.
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Post by raspberry-blower »

Latest Keiser Report featuring Prof Steve Keen
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools - Douglas Adams.
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UndercoverElephant
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Re: Financial Nonsense Overload

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e42327.htm
By Dmitry Orlov

....As most of you probably know, Greece is saddled with more debt than it can possibly hope to ever repay. Documents recently released by the International Monetary Fund conceded this point. A lot of this bad debt was incurred in order to pay back German and French banks for previous bad debt. The debt was bad to begin with, because it was made based on very faulty projections of Greece's potential for economic growth. The lenders behaved irresponsibly in offering the loans in the first place, and they deserve to lose their money.

However, Greece's creditors refuse to consider declaring all of this bad debt null and void—not because of anything having to do with Greece, which is small enough to be forgiven much of its bad debt without causing major damage, but because of Spain, Italy and others, which, if similarly forgiven, would blow up the finances of the entire European Union. Thus, it is rather obvious that Greece is being punished to keep other countries in line. Collective punishment of a country—in the form of extracting payments for onerous debt incurred under false pretenses—is bad enough; but collective punishment of one country to have it serve as a warning to others is beyond the pale.
I might point out that I posted exactly this point yesterday, having not read Orlov's article.

It is obvious. Only Mr Hemming doesn't understand it.
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Sigmar Gabriel who I referred to earlier (as also not being pale blue) is the leader of the German SPD.

I accept that most of the posters to this forum disagree with me.

The underlying question for Greece is whether to accept things like charging VAT on hotels in the Aegean Islands, not allowing people to retire at 50 etc etc

Personally I don't think that is unreasonable. We don't allow VAT zero rating for the Isle of Wight or the Western Isles. We also no longer allow retirement at 50 - even private pension funds can no longer be drawn from at 50 (it stopped in 2010). Now whatever your view of the 2005-10 Labour government it cannot be said that stopping people retiring at 50 was an inherently right wing policy. Since then retirement ages have been pushed up further.

When you do the multi year forecasting you find that retirement costs become a bigger and bigger issue.

People on this forum are referring to the changes as referred to above as:
The Greek government is being asked to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Sadly, the bullet will not only kill off Greece’s future in Europe.
What is clear, however, is that if the Greek government to not agree to the reforms above then Greece will continue suffering more.

The issue of the sustainability of Greek Sovereign debt is a separate issue. It does not have to be resolved now. Politically it cannot be resolved in isolation as it also raises questions about Ireland and other countries.

My personal view is that Ireland has a stronger argument for some debt relief than Greece (because of the issue of senior bank debt). However, there is no way you can agree something for Greece without also having at least a good idea as to the solution for other countries.

Hence we come back to the issue of the reliability of international treaties. I am a strong supporter of the international rule of law. If Greece is allowed to simply say we don't like these treaties and are not going to follow them that is a really retrograde step. Any change has to be by agreement, not by a plebiscite in one country alone.

Even the French population now want to see Greece leave the EZ.
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