Greece Watch...

[johnhemming2]

It is possible if you reduce the energy intensity of the GDP to have some financial growth without a growth in consumption. It remains, however, that the arguments about limits to resource consumption are incontravertible in the long term (depends on how long term medium is).

One of the later peak oil meetings had people from fracking saying that we needed to sort society for the 2020s.

That, however, is not the same issue as to whether contracts freely come to can be simply disavowed. However, flush the world is with resources there still needs to be a basis upon which people can trust each other to act as they have agreed to act. (for consideration).

[biffvernon]

And the other thing that is incontrovertible is that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

[johnhemming2]

And the other thing that is incontrovertible is that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

That particular statement is controvertible.

Are you really arguing that climate change would be expected to result the extinction of Homo Sapiens.

[biffvernon]

I'm not arguing, I'm just saying that it is incontrovertible that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

If we continue with the current nonsense I dare say a few folk will eke out a survival of some sorts for a while, but civilisation? Forget it. There's nothing civilised about the effects of a 4 or 6° world.

Or even 2°.

[Tarrel]

And the other thing that is incontrovertible is that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

That particular statement is controvertible.

Are you really arguing that climate change would be expected to result the extinction of Homo Sapiens.

Who knows, but it is a distinct possibility. Many species go extinct as a result of loss of habitat. We're here because of a particular window in our climate. If that changes appreciably (for whatever reason), we're toast (literally).

[Tarrel]

Looks like Greece are going to a propose a progressive, investment-based solution, presumably targeting funds at job creation.

Greek President to Donald Tusk:

July 7, 2015

Dear Mr. President,

I would like to inform you that following a request by the Prime Minister of Greece Mr. Alexis Tsipras, I called a meeting yesterday of the political leaders of the Parties of the Greek Parliament, in which a common declaration was adopted by all Parties except the Communist Party of Greece stating the following:

The recent vote of the Greek people in the referendum does not constitute a mandate to break away from the Euro zone, but a mandate to continue and strengthen the effort for attaining a socially just and economically viable agreement. The Government will assume the responsibility of continuing negotiations, and every political leader will contribute to this effort on the basis of their institutional and political role.

The common goal, in this context, is the pursuit of a solution that will ensure:

- Covering, sufficiently, the financial needs of the country

- Credible reforms, based on a fair distribution of burdens and the promotion of growth, with as few recessionary consequences as possible

- A strong, front-loaded developmental program, primarily oriented to confronting unemployment and encouraging entrepreneurship

- A commitment to beginning a substantial discussion on confronting the problem of the viability of Greek public debt

The Political Leaders also underlined that the restoration of liquidity in the Greek banking system, in coordination with the ECB, constitutes an immediate priority.

The aforementioned consensual decision of most Greek Parliamentary parties constitutes a crucial opportunity for all euro zone partners to reach an economically and politically viable agreement.

I remain,

Sincerely yours

Prokopis Pavlopoulos

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2 ... -deal-live

[Tarrel]

Whatever anyone may criticise Tsipras for, he's done something ground-breaking; apparently achieved relative unity and consensus among Greece's political parties WRT the financial crisis.

[3rdRock]

And the other thing that is incontrovertible is that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

That particular statement is controvertible.

Are you really arguing that climate change would be expected to result the extinction of Homo Sapiens.

Who knows, but it is a distinct possibility. Many species go extinct as a result of loss of habitat. We're here because of a particular window in our climate. If that changes appreciably (for whatever reason), we're toast (literally).

Good. Planet Earth will be a better place without us.

Here's a book worth reading:

The World Without Us by Alan Weisman

http://www.worldwithoutus.com/about_book.html

The World Without Us reveals how, just days after humans disappear, floods in New York's subways would start eroding the city's foundations, and how, as the world’s cities crumble, asphalt jungles give way to real ones. It describes the distinct ways that organic and chemically-treated farms would revert to wild, how billions more birds would flourish, and how cockroaches in unheated cities would perish without us. Drawing on the expertise of engineers, atmospheric scientists, art conservators, zoologists, oil refiners, marine biologists, astrophysicists, religious leaders from rabbis to the Dalai Lama, and paleontologists – who describe a pre-human world inhabited by megafauna like giant sloths that stood taller than mammoths – Weisman illustrates what the planet might be like today, if not for us.

From places already devoid of humans (a last fragment of primeval European forest; the Korean DMZ; Chernobyl), Weisman reveals Earth's tremendous capacity for self-healing. As he shows which human devastations are indelible, and which examples of our highest art and culture would endure longest, Weisman's narrative ultimately drives toward a radical but persuasive solution that doesn't depend on our demise. It is narrative nonfiction at its finest, and in posing an irresistible concept with both gravity and a highly-readable touch, it looks deeply at our effects on the planet in a way that no other book has.

[Tarrel]

A street-level view of economic collapse:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/ ... kets-video



The guys in that market need to start issuing some form of grass-roots local currency between themselves, and fast. Could the New Drachma start as such a grass-roots currency? Born in the street market and rippling out to local suppliers and consumers?

[peaceful_life]

It is possible if you reduce the energy intensity of the GDP to have some financial growth without a growth in consumption. It remains, however, that the arguments about limits to resource consumption are incontravertible in the long term (depends on how long term medium is).

One of the later peak oil meetings had people from fracking saying that we needed to sort society for the 2020s.

That, however, is not the same issue as to whether contracts freely come to can be simply disavowed. However, flush the world is with resources there still needs to be a basis upon which people can trust each other to act as they have agreed to act. (for consideration).

For that we need a direction of biospherical reparation and regeneration, any other contract than that will leave us with the same old tired dominative views and further our exacerbated shadow boxing....into certain demise.

We are way out of order.

[clv101]

And the other thing that is incontrovertible is that if we don't stop emitting greenhouse gasses pdq then everything else is irrelevant to human civilisation's survival.

That particular statement is controvertible.

Are you really arguing that climate change would be expected to result the extinction of Homo Sapiens.

Extinction of Homo sapiens, almost certainly not.

However biffvernon was talking about human civilisation's survival. There I think it quite likely that our current global civilisation of 7-10bn people won't survive in recognisable form in a 4-6 degree warmer world where sea levels are 1-3 metres higher in just a couple centuries.

If we don't manage to limit warming from pre-industrial times in the +2-3 degree range, we'll have a lot more to worry about than Greece's debts!

[johnhemming2]

Whatever anyone may criticise Tsipras for, he's done something ground-breaking; apparently achieved relative unity and consensus among Greece's political parties WRT the financial crisis.

Is there any Greek politician who does not want to solve the crisis?

The question is how?

[3rdRock]

Whatever anyone may criticise Tsipras for, he's done something ground-breaking; apparently achieved relative unity and consensus among Greece's political parties WRT the financial crisis.

Is there any Greek politician who does not want to solve the crisis?

The question is how?

We all thought you knew.

[biffvernon]

[johnhemming2]

The point I am making is that the Greek politicians won't agree on how to solve the crisis.

The obvious thing to have done was for the Greeks to agree to the Troika proposals, but I am not sure the Troika want to have any further commitment to greece beyond humanitarian aid.

The problem for the Troika in agreeing an arrangement with Greece is that if it goes wrong they have a moral commitment to trying to sort it out.