Migrant watch (merged topic)

[biffvernon]

California is largely empty of people because it's largely empty of water.

California is a large place and my friends were in the northern part where there is quite a lot of water. Washington and Oregon even more so. But yes, central and southern California has a big problem. It will be interesting to see if a strong El Nino will bring rain or if there has been an enduring climate shift already.

[biffvernon]

Areas already dependent on imports for basic needs shouldn't increase their populations. Folk should be able to meet their basic needs from their local-ish environment.

But you have to put that into its system boundary context. Currently the population of London, a basic needs importer, is increasing much faster than Lincolnshire, an exporting region. And even Lincolnshire imports food from the much more densely populated Netherlands! That might change as we move to a zero-carbon system.

[3rdRock]

God knows. It's too late to be able to provide any kind of positive answer. The time for that was about 40 years ago. 20 years at most. Now, all that is left is the need for every community, every nation to make sure its own house is in order and then, resources permitting, seek to help out other communities, other nations when and where possible.

+1. Cancelling their debts would be a start.

http://www.globalissues.org/issue/28/th ... evelopment

The causes of debt are a result of many factors, including:

The legacy of colonialism — for example, the developing countries’ debt is partly the result of the unjust transfer to them of the debts of the colonizing states, in billions of dollars, at very high interest rates.

Odious debt, whereby unjust debt is incurred as rich countries loaned dictators or other corrupt leaders when it was known that the money would be wasted. South Africa, for example shortly after freedom from Apartheid had to pay debts incurred by the apartheid regime. In effect, South Africans are paying for their own oppression.

Mismanaged spending and lending by the West in the 1960s and 70s.

In effect, due to enormous debt repayments, the poor are subsidizing the rich.

[emordnilap]

The report points to the fact that if we don't share the world's wealth more equitably as well as doing something positive about CC/GW we are all stuffed.

The key word Ken. But it's going the other way.

[kenneal - lagger]

All we need now is a drawbridge.

We already have quite a number of them. They are on the front, and usually the back, of all the ferries and have been used already to stop illegal migrants from entering ferries on the way to the UK.

[AutomaticEarth]

Watching all the mess in Calais, and find it interesting that a lot of the migrants claiming asylum are ending up there. If they're claiming asylum, why don't they do that in the first country they land in?

[kenneal - lagger]

Because Italy, Spain and Greece are broke, those countries don't pay enough benefits and there aren't the black market jobs available there because the locals are doing anything that it available already. France makes it known to them that they aren't welcome there so a good proportion of them, most of whom speak some English, want to come here. Some of the others go to Germany and Sweden, although the Swedes are showing signs of having had enough.

[UndercoverElephant]

Watching all the mess in Calais, and find it interesting that a lot of the migrants claiming asylum are ending up there. If they're claiming asylum, why don't they do that in the first country they land in?

Very good question, and the only credible answer is that they think a better life is on offer in the UK than continental Europe. They may well be fleeing from a hideous situation in their own countries - sufficiently hideous that by historical standards they would stand a good chance of being granted asylum - but having got to Italy/Greece/Spain/France, they still fancy the look of the UK.

The current situation is intolerable and is only going to get worse. Perhaps EU law needs to be changed so that asylum seekers from outside the EU have to claim asylum in the first country they arrive in, or lose the right to claim at all.

Although everything might well change in a couple of years as a result of treaty changes or Brexit from the EU.

As discussed in other threads, I believe in the long run we're simply going to have to limit immigration to people who are coming here to do jobs that absolutely nobody else can do. It may reach the point where nobody is granted asylum, at all.

[biffvernon]

In another place:

Biff Vernon
13 hrs ·
What would happen if instead of spending what we do on border control (another £7m announced yesterday to build more fences at Calais) we spent it on homes and support infrastructure for our new neighbours?
29 Likes5 Comments2 Shares

[UndercoverElephant]

if instead of spending what we do on border control (another £7m announced yesterday to build more fences at Calais) we spent it on homes and support infrastructure for our new neighbours?

It would encourage even more people who currently aren't our neighbours to become our even newer neighbours.

This would help the world, overall, how?

[UndercoverElephant]

Well worth reading

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/07 ... 1438193339

[kenneal - lagger]

Perhaps EU law needs to be changed so that asylum seekers from outside the EU have to claim asylum in the first country they arrive in, or lose the right to claim at all.

This would make things worse for us because once they have EU papers, which their first country would give them just to get rid of them, they would have a legal right of access to the UK just as any Pole, Romanian or even Frenchman has. It's only because they haven't got papers that they aren't allowed in.

[kenneal - lagger]

In another place:

Biff Vernon
13 hrs ·
What would happen if instead of spending what we do on border control (another £7m announced yesterday to build more fences at Calais) we spent it on homes and support infrastructure for our new neighbours?
29 Likes5 Comments2 Shares

That is more a comment on your Liberal friends, Biff, than on the issue! I suspect that if I had printed that it wouldn't have got quite so many likes.

[biffvernon]

That is more a comment on your Liberal friends, Biff, than on the issue! I suspect that if I had printed that it wouldn't have got quite so many likes.

That's the nice thing about facebook - you can choose your friends.

[UndercoverElephant]

Perhaps EU law needs to be changed so that asylum seekers from outside the EU have to claim asylum in the first country they arrive in, or lose the right to claim at all.

This would make things worse for us because once they have EU papers, which their first country would give them just to get rid of them, they would have a legal right of access to the UK just as any Pole, Romanian or even Frenchman has. It's only because they haven't go papers that they aren't allowed in.

Since I wrote that I have learned that it is impossible. Greece and Italy simply cannot cope with the number of applications they are already getting, so they can't process any more.

Applying doesn't mean getting though. Although I'm not sure what the EU is supposed to do with thousands of failed asylum seekers from places like Syria. It really does look to me like the only solution is to stop them from reaching Europe in the first place, somehow.