Greece Watch...

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 25 Jun 2015, 09:46

Please sign the petition calling on the cancellation of Greece's debt.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 11:06

The cancellation of Greece's debt means that the people owed money by Greece will no longer get it. That includes everyone in the UK.

A fairer route would be that those people who are happy that Greece does not pay them send them the amount of cash that they are happy not to be paid.

I believe a couple in Germany sent the Greeks some cash. Is anyone here going to send them some cash?

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 25 Jun 2015, 11:27

johnhemming wrote:The cancellation of Greece's debt means that the people owed money by Greece will no longer get it. That includes everyone in the UK.

A fairer route would be that those people who are happy that Greece does not pay them send them the amount of cash that they are happy not to be paid.

I believe a couple in Germany sent the Greeks some cash. Is anyone here going to send them some cash?

Are you seriously as illiterate about what "money" really actually is, at the systemic level, as you are seeming to be with these posts?

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 11:45

Do you really not know what the word "illiterate" means?

There was a really good summary recently of the examples of hyperinflation where governments issued bonds in large quantities and the central bank simply swept it up. Money needs confidence. If you simply print a load of money so that people in Greece can retire at 50 if they are in such a hazardous profession as a radio announcer then people lose confidence.

However, the choice remains. If you want to give money to the Greeks. Go ahead. Just don't ask me to do the same - beyond humanitarian aid that they will need if they drop out of the Eurozone.

I suppose in the realm of the "print more money" theorists they can leave the Eurozone, print as much money as they like and call it Drachmas, and life will be rosy. Like I suppose Zimbabwe found.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 25 Jun 2015, 12:05

johnhemming wrote: He is also an idiot for...

Have you actually looked at Yanis Varoufakis's cv.? You've now called him an idiot twice! I'm not making the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, just challenging your use of the word 'idiot'.
I can understand that you do not like his politics and clearly his reading of economics is a challenge to the neo-liberal agenda of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, who you may have supported in the coalition days. But as one of the MPs who was willing to support radical ideas such as TEQs, I am surprised that you continue to call Varoufakis an idiot. There is no merit in your argument.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 25 Jun 2015, 12:07

Is this the cv of "an idiot"?

https://varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/ ... v-2013.pdf

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 12:36

I am going by what he has been doing.

He has been foolish in the way in which he has handled the Greek economy and the negotiations with the creditors. He has concentrated on issues like renaming "the troika" to "the institutions".

He is clearly a fool. Definition: "a person who acts unwisely or imprudently;"

A synonym for fool is "idiot".

He is an idiot.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 25 Jun 2015, 13:23

The debasement of the English language to serve your political outlook. A sad situation.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 25 Jun 2015, 14:22

Meanwhile those in charge of the goalposts, the troika, are determined to have their way and they will. Bullies have to be stood up to but it's a wonder they haven't imposed one of their 'caretaker' (hah) administrations yet.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 25 Jun 2015, 14:30

I think there is a serious risk of that happening if (a) they push Greece over the edge and (b) Greece then attempts to make nice with Russia.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 25 Jun 2015, 14:46

Sadly, it seems both the Troika and the Greek Government are inclined to push things to the brink than reach compromise.

It looks like both parties are sticking their heels in and that does not bode well. This could seriously end in tears.... maybe time to start preparing for that outcome.

What can or should we do to mitigate the Euro unravelling?

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 25 Jun 2015, 15:21

snow, the Greek government are not 'digging in their heels'. They've conceded a huge amount.

We're all familiar with a manifesto stating one thing and then the party doing the opposite - this is normal politics, where parties choose to lie. Syriza have been forced to break their election promises by three totally unelected external agents dictating Greek internal policy.

The IMF is using its outmoded and discredited tactics and demands: hitting the poor with VAT increases, hammering pensions, emasculating unions, rampant privatisation etc etc.

A quote from a Greek:

The proposals by the SYRIZA government are a painful compromise compared with its electoral promises. It has accepted tight fiscal targets, and to achieve them it is offering to increase VAT on several types of goods while also imposing a substantial tax burden on the rich, thus achieving some redistribution. It has also toned down its policies on privatisation and pensions.

In return it is asking the troika for an immediate injection of liquidity, as well as for a serious commitment to reducing Greece’s debt and promoting long-term investment. There is hardly anything revolutionary, or even particularly radical, in these demands.

Side note: the IMF has made it official: it will go on lending to Ukraine regardless of whether or not it defaults on its private western debt. Source: the IMF

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 15:33

>The debasement of the English language to serve your political outlook. A sad situation.

I am simply sticking to the truth.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 15:35

>Syriza have been forced to break their election promises by three totally unelected external agents dictating Greek internal policy.

Syrizia don't have to follow the proposals from the Eurozone. At the moment it appears they are going for the default option. If you want to borrow money from someone it is not unusual for there to be conditions of some form.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 15:37

>What can or should we do to mitigate the Euro unravelling?
a) There is little the UK can do.
b) A Greek default means it is unlikely that the Euro will unravel.

Allowing the greeks to retire at 50 funded by the rest of the Eurozone has a lot more potential for stress.