Greece Watch...

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 24 Jun 2015, 14:25

The IMF want more austerity, even though empirically that's failed for the last 5 years or so, and theoretically, the IMF say that it is wrong.

It's hard not to see this as punishment,

Peter.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 24 Jun 2015, 15:28

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 24 Jun 2015, 16:15

All this last minute back stabbing and brinkmanship is sounding more and more like the annual US stalemate that is the US President's budget negotiations with congress.

That usually goes up to a few days past the wire, when the government stops paying its employees etc., because it hasn't got the cash, but only little people suffer so it doesn't matter.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » 24 Jun 2015, 17:15

Here's a fairly clear summary of where the conflict is at present and how it got there.

These demands are not being chosen lightly. Rather, they are designed to discredit Syriza by punishing the very people the party has sworn to protect. The Troika are basically out for blood. They want to humiliate Syriza in order to send a signal to workers that they are better off with neoliberal lackeys like New Democracy (or Fine Gael*).

* Fine Gael being in nominal charge of Ireland's current regime.

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 24 Jun 2015, 18:45

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33258624

Tsipras turns on creditors

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has criticised Greece's international creditors for failing to accept his government's latest reform proposals.

He said this never occurred with similar measures put forward by other states negotiating bailouts, suggesting creditors might not want a deal.

There are also reports that Greece has rejected an IMF counter-proposal seeking more pension and spending cuts.

Mr Tsipras' remarks came before he began new talks to secure a debt deal.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 24 Jun 2015, 20:45

The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... nn-2015-03

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 24 Jun 2015, 21:17

johnhemming wrote:The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... nn-2015-03

The Northern European states developed a Greek economy based on debt-fuelled growth from European banks. It's what you get when one part of an economic area has more money than another part. It get's redistributed as debt. The only way to avoid that is by legislation top protect the poorer parts and/or wealth redistribution via differential tax allocation to various regions. The problem for Greece and many other southern Mediterranean countries is that, in terms of Europe being a fully fledged United States Of Europe, or completely separate states with separate monetary policies and money supplies, it is neither fish nor fowl.

This has always been the problem and the consequences for Greece and other similar countries were inevitable under the current arrangements

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 24 Jun 2015, 21:46

johnhemming wrote:The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.

And your views on Yanis Varoufakis as a smart economist who has seen through the current neo-liberal paradigm, John?

3rdRock · Post by **3rdRock** » 24 Jun 2015, 21:53

Little John wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commen ... nn-2015-03
The Northern European states developed a Greek economy based on debt-fuelled growth from European banks. It's what you get when one part of an economic area has more money than another part. It get's redistributed as debt. The only way to avoid that is by legislation top protect the poorer parts and/or wealth redistribution via differential tax allocation to various regions. The problem for Greece and many other southern Mediterranean countries is that, in terms of Europe being a fully fledged United States Of Europe, or completely separate states with separate monetary policies and money supplies, it is neither fish nor fowl.

This has always been the problem and the consequences for Greece and other similar countries were inevitable under the current arrangements

+1. Unfortunately for the Greeks, all they could ever bring to the party was agriculture and tourism.

I don't recall Germany complaining when the Greeks were buying their VW's, Audi's and BMW's with all of that low interest credit on offer from the Northern European banks.

Internal corruption and greed have also played a large part in reducing the Greek economy to it's current, pitiful state. It's all very sad.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 06:07

[quote="biffvernon"]
[quote="johnhemming"]The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.[/quote]

And your views on Yanis Varoufakis as a smart economist who has seen through the current neo-liberal paradigm, John?
[/quote]
Idiot who is doing a lot of damage to the greek people.

The solution of saving cash by not paying suppliers is nonsensical. It is not a long term solution.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » 25 Jun 2015, 06:15

johnhemming wrote:
biffvernon wrote:
johnhemming wrote:The greeks developed an economy based upon subsidies from outside Greece. They need to develop an economy which is more self financing. They don't want to, hence the problem.
And your views on Yanis Varoufakis as a smart economist who has seen through the current neo-liberal paradigm, John?
Idiot who is doing a lot of damage to the greek people.

The solution of saving cash by not paying suppliers is nonsensical. It is not a long term solution.

Look, you are going to have to provide more than tabloid level epithets

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 06:26

>Look, you are going to have to provide more than tabloid level epithets

So not paying suppliers is a good policy?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 25 Jun 2015, 07:43

johnhemming wrote: Idiot who is doing a lot of damage to the greek people.

That, John, is a deeply disappointing response. I've read a good deal of Varoufakis's writings and concluded that 'idiot' is not an appropriate adjective to describe a brilliant economist.

Are you the same John Hemming as the one who used to post here a few years ago?

raspberry-blower · Post by **raspberry-blower** » 25 Jun 2015, 08:30

Paul Mason: Greece: A deal nobody believes in

Paul Mason wrote:They came to Brussels prepared to do a deal on the budget and debt, but to walk away and trigger financial armageddon, with aggressive defaults, if they got nothing.
It’s not petulance. Without a clear movement on debt relief and structural funds, they know their tax hike programme won’t work. And they can’t get it through their party like that in any case.

johnhemming · Post by **johnhemming** » 25 Jun 2015, 09:26

[quote="biffvernon"]
[quote="johnhemming"]
Idiot who is doing a lot of damage to the greek people.
[/quote]

That, John, is a deeply disappointing response. I've read a good deal of Varoufakis's writings and concluded that 'idiot' is not an appropriate adjective to describe a brilliant economist.

Are you the same John Hemming as the one who used to post here a few years ago? [/quote]

The answer to that question is on the forum. I joined according to that on 24th Nov 2005 (which may have been a reorganisation date).

It remains that since Varoufakis became finance minister that the situation is Greece has got a lot worse. Elections do not mean that countries have the right to break treaties and agreements.

I could hardly think up a worse way of handling the situation in Greece.

Taking one of the red lines. The creditors want Greece to stop early retirement essentially now. (I have seen a date of 1st July). The Greeks are proposing 2016. Why 2016? Why not now?

The problem with early retirement is that those people are not working, not paying any tax, not generating earnings for the country. It is all very nice to allow people to retire at 50 (I am 55). However, the underlying problem for the creditors is the question of whatever Greece can pay to pay back their borrowings, it will be more if Greece as a government has a surplus than a deficit.

I also have difficulty understanding why countries such as Slovakia are supposed to give money to Greece to give people there a higher standard of living than in Slovakia.

The net benefits from the EU for Greece are currently higher than the interest they have to pay on their sovereign debt.

Varoufakis may have thought that the Eurozone so hated the idea of Greece defaulting that they would do anything to stop it. His negotiating techniques and the arguments about war reparations were destined to burn bridges.

He is also an idiot for bothering about the total amount of debt rather than the amount of money that Greece has to pay (which takes into account interest etc).