Move to new planet, says Hawking

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 01 Dec 2006, 23:38

Well our planet spins at an angle of 23 degrees....... and even this changes over time (between 22 and 24.5 degrees) - the obliquity I believe it is called.....

The axial tilt of earth is the cause of our seasons. The obliquity has a period of 41,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_tilt

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 02 Dec 2006, 00:13

isenhand wrote:
Adam1 wrote:
So you are saying that fundamentalists are a nutty as fruitcakes?
It?s an irrational behaviour but I don?t know if we could go so far as to say they are really mad. Personally, I think it just builds on natural human (mainly male) ?monkey level? behaviour. Fundamentalism does not occur only among religious groups.

I agree. There are madmen (mainly male madmen) to be found all over the place and we shouldn't generalize about fundamentalists and religious groups, however I think we'd better leave monkeys out of this - they seem pretty peaceful and none of this is their fault.

As for whether it is raisins, currants, and/or sultanas being promised in heaven, either way we're talking about the grapes of wrath

What was this thread about again?

Billhook · Post by **Billhook** » 02 Dec 2006, 00:24

I thought it was about the subjectivity of Hawkin's remarkably unscientific anthropocentrism.

But then that could have been just my faulty raisoning.

Regards,

Bill

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 04 Dec 2006, 07:00

Erik wrote:
isenhand wrote:
Adam1 wrote:
So you are saying that fundamentalists are a nutty as fruitcakes?
It?s an irrational behaviour but I don?t know if we could go so far as to say they are really mad. Personally, I think it just builds on natural human (mainly male) ?monkey level? behaviour. Fundamentalism does not occur only among religious groups.

I agree. There are madmen (mainly male madmen) to be found all over the place and we shouldn't generalize about fundamentalists and religious groups, however I think we'd better leave monkeys out of this - they seem pretty peaceful and none of this is their fault.

Well, that was a bit naughty of me. Not being specific. By ?monkey level behaviour? I mean the behaviour of our closes evolutionary cousins, the chimps. And the can be very violent. Human being have a lot of characteristics in common with chips and this fundamentalism that human?s exhibit, although not something that chimps exhibit, I see as being built up on a set of behaviours that both chimps and humans exhibit. That is status seeking and the use of force to suppress opposition.

Erik wrote:
What was this thread about again?

Going to another planet to survive. And the point I was trying to get at was the way we do things here creates a mess so we need to sort ourselves out first or we will just make a mess on another planet as well (nicely summed up in the Matrix quote).

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 04 Dec 2006, 08:05

isenhand wrote:Well, that was a bit naughty of me. Not being specific. By ?monkey level behaviour? I mean the behaviour of our closes evolutionary cousins, the chimps. And the can be very violent. Human being have a lot of characteristics in common with chips and this fundamentalism that human?s exhibit, although not something that chimps exhibit, I see as being built up on a set of behaviours that both chimps and humans exhibit. That is status seeking and the use of force to suppress opposition.

Yes, I know what you mean, but it's not just fundamentalists exhibiting monkey-level behaviour, it's ingrained into all of us. It's rather ironic in fact that we humans sometimes compare each other to monkeys in a kind of jokingly insulting way, when really our behaviour, even at the best of times, is not so different to theirs at all!

This continual striving to improve one's status is quite possibly the root of all our problems. We may (arguably) have the technology and know-how to tackle climate change and peak oil, but will we ever be able to apply such knowledge if we continue to compete with each other?

isenhand · Post by **isenhand** » 04 Dec 2006, 09:04

Erik wrote: but it's not just fundamentalists exhibiting monkey-level behaviour, it's ingrained into all of us. It's rather ironic in fact that we humans sometimes compare each other to monkeys in a kind of jokingly insulting way, when really our behaviour, even at the best of times, is not so different to theirs at all!

Yes, I quite agree. However, I would add that we can actually go a bit beyond basic monkey level behaviour and do things that other primate can?t do.

Erik wrote: This continual striving to improve one's status is quite possibly the root of all our problems. We may (arguably) have the technology and know-how to tackle climate change and peak oil, but will we ever be able to apply such knowledge if we continue to compete with each other?

Yes, or if we can?t find some other way to direct that kind of behaviour. Humans are capable of a wide range of behaviour and different environments / socioeconomic system encourage different behaviours to dominate. So changing the way we do things could result in a different way of behaving. That does not mean that certain behaviours vanish. They wills till be there but they will be less dominate.

Our current socioeconomic system does encourage all this basic monkey level behaviour of greed, status and selfishness and if we continue with it then I don?t think will get an acceptable solution to CC and PO. We then need to work on a new system if we wish to get an acceptable solution. Note, we will find a solution one way or another even if that ?solution? means then end of civilisation or the wiping out of 2-3 Gppls.

bobcousins · Post by **bobcousins** » 04 Dec 2006, 15:00

Hawking's vision is truly universal, so to him planning for events occurring 4.5 billion years from now make sense. But there is no point taking his comments out of context.

There are plenty more pressing threats to humans. Assuming we get through PO and GW, avian flu pandemic, address the many environmental problems, and avoid a nuclear war, we have to face the return of next ice age, probably in around 20,000 years time. The UK will once again be covered by 1km thick ice sheets.

Then there other global threats such as supervolcanos, asteroid strikes, as well as other regional threats, eg. San Francisco, Tokyo, Istanbul are all "due" for a big earthquake. We know for sure these will happen in the future, but can't really predict when.

There have been at least 5 major extinction events on Earth, over the last 500 miilion years. We will have a tough time just surviving to the time frame Hawking is talking about.

Post by **clv101** » 04 Dec 2006, 15:30

bobcousins wrote:...we have to face the return of next ice age, probably in around 20,000 years time. The UK will once again be covered by 1km thick ice sheets.

Hansen noted the other day that ice ages were now impossible (presumably until millions of years has managed to sequester the CO2). The process of fractional reduction in solar output triggering ice sheet expansion which intern increased planetary reflectivity and decreased CO2 concentrations doesn?t work anymore since the increased CO2 concentration doesn?t allow for the fractional reduction in solar output to trigger the ice sheet expansion required to drive the cooling an ice age needs.

Post by **kenneal - lagger** » 04 Dec 2006, 15:54

Fundamentalism does not occur only among religious groups.

Who's the fundamentalist to watch out for on this website then?

Andy Hunt · Post by **Andy Hunt** » 04 Dec 2006, 16:39

kenneal wrote:
Fundamentalism does not occur only among religious groups.
Who's the fundamentalist to watch out for on this website then?

Me! I'm a suicide gardener!

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 04 Dec 2006, 16:48

kenneal wrote:Who's the fundamentalist to watch out for on this website then?

If anyone wants to fund a mentalist, just send me a message and I'll pass you my bank account details...

dudley · Post by **dudley** » 04 Dec 2006, 17:10

Hawking favours "matter/anti-matter annihilation" as a means of propulsion. If we had a matter/anti-matter annihilation reactor that didn't rely on fossil fuels it would solve a lot of our problems. Trying to create one sounds less promising than fusion. Where do you get the anti-matter?

I wonder if he has ever thought about oil depletion.

snow hope · Post by **snow hope** » 05 Dec 2006, 00:48

clv101 wrote:
bobcousins wrote:...we have to face the return of next ice age, probably in around 20,000 years time. The UK will once again be covered by 1km thick ice sheets.
Hansen noted the other day that ice ages were now impossible (presumably until millions of years has managed to sequester the CO2). The process of fractional reduction in solar output triggering ice sheet expansion which intern increased planetary reflectivity and decreased CO2 concentrations doesn?t work anymore since the increased CO2 concentration doesn?t allow for the fractional reduction in solar output to trigger the ice sheet expansion required to drive the cooling an ice age needs.

Well that is one man's opinion and he may indeed be right. But since it is not yet clear what actually causes the ice ages of the last couple of million years then in my opinion it must be hard to draw the conclusion he puts forth. No doubt he is a lot more knowledgeable than me on the matter, but that does not mean to say that he is in fact correct. Often the biggest problem scientists and their theories come across are incorrect assumptions. We need to be aware of accepting all we are told and maintain a healthy scepticism so that we can question and probe until we are convinced or adher to alternative theories.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 09 Dec 2006, 15:26

isenhand wrote:
Erik wrote: but it's not just fundamentalists exhibiting monkey-level behaviour, it's ingrained into all of us. It's rather ironic in fact that we humans sometimes compare each other to monkeys in a kind of jokingly insulting way, when really our behaviour, even at the best of times, is not so different to theirs at all!
Yes, I quite agree. However, I would add that we can actually go a bit beyond basic monkey level behaviour and do things that other primate can?t do.

Sorry to reopen this somewhat dormant thread but I just came across this monkey video which sort of fits in nicely here!

Post by **clv101** » 09 Dec 2006, 16:38

Ha! Like it.