Scotland Watch

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

stevecook172001 wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:Precisely.

firstly, they have pointedly not said they are going to cease conducting business in Scotland. Indeed, they have not even indicated that they are going to reduce it from its current level. They have merely said they are going to move their headquarters. which, in many cases, amounts to little more than the relocation of a company plaque. There may be some benefit to them regarding calling on the bank of England as lender of last resort. I am not sure.
I am. That's the main reason they are moving.
But, in any event, this has no direct bearing on Scotland save benefiting it by having the bank of England as an indirect lender of last resort despite Scotland no longer being a part of the UK. Hardly a curse wouldn't you say?
Scotland will lose the tax on the profits made by those banks. SO....Scottish people will take out mortgages to buy houses from other Scottish people, an English-registered bank will then invent money out of thin air and charge those Scottish people interest on it. And the profits on that activity will be taxed by the rUK government, and any losses during financial crises will be borne by the rUK taxpayer.

Whether that is a blessing or a curse is debatable. Either way, Alex Salmond is a liar.
Everything you have written there could be applied to any country anywhere in the word that has, within its jurisdiction, any company whose headquarters are elsewhere in the world. Why is this any more a significant issue for Scotland than it is for everywhere else?
It's a significant issue for Scotland because Scots are voting on independence and need to be furnished with the facts about the economic implications. It's more significant for Scotland than anywhere else because Scotland, if it is heading towards independence, doesn't know what currency it will be using, or what central bank, if any, will be accessible. Large companies like banks cannot make plans for their own future if they are faced with uncertainties of this magnitude.

It's an issue because people like Salmond are claiming that the macro-economic warnings being issued by the no campaign are "scaremongering". They are not scaremongering. Salmond and co have not resolved the currency, therefore the banks and their tax revenues are going to leave.
This issue is at least as important for England, is it not, given all of the overseas companies operating here?
Well, it's quite important if the companies in question are unstable banks....

It's hard to see what we lose if a US drilling company "relocates" itself here. Nobody is going to bail them out if they go bust. We just take the tax, thanks.
Little John

Post by Little John »

If, by "furnished with the facts"you mean that Scotland will be subject to all of the risks, as well as the benefits of a sovereign nation, why do you suppose that Scots will not already be aware of this? True enough, Salmond et al will accentuate the positive. But, so what? Your logic would dictate that we should submit to full EU control since, being a larger state entity, the risks you have outlined would be commensurately smaller would they not?

What about all the overseas "unstable" financial institutions operating in England? Presumably we, like Scotland, if it gains independence, would benefit indirectly from any parent company having access to their lender of last resort in the county where their headquarters is based.

All of the arguments you are presenting here are in direct contradiction, in terms of their logic, to your stated position vis a vis the UK and Europe. A position, I should add, that I happen to agree with.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

But my position on Europe has more to do with immigration than it does with financial stability.

I can see your point, but the two situations are not the same. Yes, Scotland is smaller than the UK and the UK is smaller than the EU, but that's not the only thing that matters!

I don't believe my position is inconsistent with itself.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

UndercoverElephant wrote: Scotland will lose the tax on the profits made by those banks. SO....Scottish people will take out mortgages to buy houses from other Scottish people, an English-registered bank will then invent money out of thin air and charge those Scottish people interest on it. And the profits on that activity will be taxed by the rUK government, and any losses during financial crises will be borne by the rUK taxpayer.
You are assuming the only source of mortgage money is England. There is no reason why Scottish mortgages can't be financed from Scottish deposits of one kind or another and be on just a firm footing as those from London. On a per capita and per property basis of course. If a London bank can make money out of thin air why can't a Scottish one? Losses born by the rUK tax payer? Up until now that has included you. After a split the risk per tax payer might be less in Scotland then now and the tax payers in the rUK might have a larger burden on them then the Scots.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

vtsnowedin wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: Scotland will lose the tax on the profits made by those banks. SO....Scottish people will take out mortgages to buy houses from other Scottish people, an English-registered bank will then invent money out of thin air and charge those Scottish people interest on it. And the profits on that activity will be taxed by the rUK government, and any losses during financial crises will be borne by the rUK taxpayer.
You are assuming the only source of mortgage money is England. There is no reason why Scottish mortgages can't be financed from Scottish deposits of one kind or another and be on just a firm footing as those from London.
Yes there is, at least as the banking system currently works. There will be no Scottish-registered banks, because Scotland won't have access to a central bank.

On a per capita and per property basis of course. If a London bank can make money out of thin air why can't a Scottish one? Losses born by the rUK tax payer? Up until now that has included you. After a split the risk per tax payer might be less in Scotland then now and the tax payers in the rUK might have a larger burden on them then the Scots.
If the banks go tits-up (again), then British (rUK) taxpayers will pay disproportionately for it, (again).

During non-crisis times, the banks pay nice fat taxes to the government. Then during times of crisis, inexplicably, the government bails them out with public money. They should be allowed to go bust. But that is for another thread.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Yes there is, at least as the banking system currently works. There will be no Scottish-registered banks, because Scotland won't have access to a central bank.


.
If Scotland becomes a sovereign country why would it not create it's own central bank? And register banks, and allow foreign (English or perhaps American among others)to operate there as long as they behave themselves and pay taxes at rates and under rules that the Scots set in the Scottish parliament.
You don't seem to understand that freedom includes the freedom to succeed as well as the potential to fail.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

vtsnowedin wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Yes there is, at least as the banking system currently works. There will be no Scottish-registered banks, because Scotland won't have access to a central bank.


.
If Scotland becomes a sovereign country why would it not create it's own central bank?
Damned good question. A question the Scottish Nationalists are very, very reluctant to answer. Alex Salmond has been asked repeatedly over the last six months about what currency an independent Scotland would use. He could, at any time, have said "well, we'll set up our own currency, of course", but those words have not slithered out of his mouth. Instead he's produced a mountain of bullshit about how an independent Scotland would "keep the pound", claiming that the rUK point-blank rejections of a currency union is "bluffing"" or "bullying". Five years ago he was saying that "sterling is a millstone around Scotland's neck", but that was when it was likely that Scotland might be able to join the Euro.

The truth is this: Scotland, on its own, does not have the economic clout to stand behind what would be an over-sized financial sector. It would be in the sort of position Iceland was, before the events of 2008 turned Iceland into a European pariah. The truth is that if the nationalists declared openly that an independent Scotland would set up a new Scottish currency, not only all of its banks but a lot of its other major companies would immediately declare they were relocating to England.

So they lie to their own people.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/0 ... K520140908
(Reuters) - Scotland's nationalists may have to add the creation of a central bank and a currency to their plan to build a new country, if they win next week's independence referendum.

The Plan A of Alex Salmond's Scottish National Party has long been for an independent Scotland to share the Bank of England with the rest of the United Kingdom, along with the pound as a joint currency.

Britain's three big political parties say they are not bluffing when they rule out such a currency union.

The question of what money an independent Scotland would use is the biggest point of contention ahead of the vote on Sept. 18, which opinion polls show is too close to call.

Unless British leaders do a U-turn and agree to a currency union after a vote for secession, Scotland would face the choice of adopting the pound unilaterally or creating a currency run by a central bank of its own.

If it took the latter route, some economists say, the oil-producing country could struggle to build up sufficient reserves despite Salmond's hopes of creating a Norwegian-style sovereign wealth fund.

Using the pound without an agreement with the rest of the United Kingdom would raise major questions about the ability of Scotland to provide support for its banks and steer its economy.

A former top European Union official warned last week that it would also kill Scotland's chances of the joining the EU, something which is central to Salmond's independence plan.

Olli Rehn, monetary affairs commissioner in Brussels until July, said Scotland would have to commit to joining the euro zone as a condition for accession to the broader EU, something he said the country would be unable to do if it did not have a monetary authority of its own.

Salmond has said an independent Scotland would not join the euro.

The British government seized on Rehn's comments to renew its attack on the nationalists' proposals.

Rehn's view has been challenged. Andrew Hughes Hallett, a member of the Scottish government's council of economic advisors, said Scotland could set up an embryonic central bank of its own and argue that it was outsourcing its functions to the Bank of England, even if there were no currency union.

"You have to have the paraphernalia of a central bank in place so you can signal that you can go into the euro, should you choose to do so," said Hughes Hallett, who teaches economics at George Mason University in the United States and St Andrews University in Scotland.

"But there is no requirement that you go into the euro."

He pointed to EU member Sweden which has so far not been required to make good on its commitment to join the euro zone.

Such arguments may one day be heard in the European Court of Justice and they would probably run into opposition from within the bloc, not least from EU member Spain. Madrid is worried that a smooth Scottish accession would embolden Catalan nationalists.

NEW COUNTRY, NEW CURRENCY?

A simpler option, many economists say, is to create a new Scottish currency under a new central bank, giving the new nation more freedom to pursue its own policies.

The task of creating a central bank itself is not a big problem. The Edinburgh government has already proposed the creation of a Scottish Monetary Institute to oversee the banking sector and collect data.

Institutions such as the International Monetary Fund would be able to help. Croatia and Slovakia, which were born from bigger nations, set up central banks smoothly.

Wim Boonstra, chief economist at Dutch bank Rabobank, said Scotland, with its long history of producing leading economists, would have no problem finding the right people.

"In a technical sense, if there is a transition period of two years, of course you can establish a central bank," said Boonstra, who teaches money and banking at the Free University in Amsterdam.

If Scotland chose to launch its own currency, the most likely option would be to peg it to the UK pound.

James Mirrlees, a Nobel prize-winning economist who advises the Scottish government and favours a formal UK-Scotland currency union, said Scotland could follow the example of Hong Kong which pegs its dollar to the U.S. dollar.

He also said Scotland would be able to borrow to build up reserves to back up a new currency, despite warnings from London that it would face higher borrowing costs, especially if Scotland shuns its share of UK debt in response to a refusal by the UK to share the pound.

Ronald MacDonald, an economics professor at Glasgow University, said building up reserves could be more problematic, something which would raise questions about the Scottish nationalists' public spending promises.

Similar-sized Nordic countries each held on average around 40 billion pounds of reserves while Scotland's share of the United Kingdom's reserves would be only around 6 billion pounds, he wrote in the Financial Times.

"To generate sufficient reserves would require an austerity programme," he said.
An austerity programme? Like, you mean...RAISING TAXES AND CUTTING SPENDING????

Noooooo! We'll be setting up a sooocialist utoooopia!!!!!!!

I do so hope they vote yes.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

I suppose some USA bank could ship them enough pictures of US presidents to tide them through any transition period. I hear the pictures of Grant and Franklin are quite sought after.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

NO: The Banks, BP, Walmart, Dave, Nick & Ed, The Orange Order.

YES: The bloke from Weatherspoons

My case rests.
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

And here's a piece from Molly Scott-Cato (who is a smart person):

http://shiftinggrounds.org/2014/09/the- ... -politics/
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Let them vote yes. It is going to be very interesting to find out how long it takes for the initial euphoria to be replaced by disillusionment and eventually anger as they discover that their votes were bought with lies, and that the warnings of the no camp were not scaremongering after all.

My prediction is that it will all have gone horribly wrong for Scotland even before the actual date of independence itself. And it will be threefold - economic problems caused by uncertainties about the currency, political problems regarding Scotland's future relationship with the EU (which will be exacerbated by Spain causing serious problems for Scotland in an attempt to dissuade its own separatists from trying to follow suit) and thirdly problems within Scotland and between Scotland and the rUK originating the details of the negotiations. For example, if the Scots were to offer a lease on Faslane for fifty years so the nuclear subs didn't have to be relocated then a significant proportion of yes voters will be absolutely livid and feel totally betrayed (and this is before independence has happened). I know at least two Scottish people whose main stated reason for voting yes is to get Trident out of Scotland. And when England refuses a currency union, the Scots will have to decide whether to go through with their threat to renege on their share of the UK debt. If they do so then it will unleash an economic shitstorm and start a mass exodus of businesses and people from Scotland. But if they don't do so then they'll have to admit to the yes voters that this threat was a bluff all along, and that Scotland will have to both honour its share of the UK debt and face the costs and risks of not being in a currency union with the UK. Either way, they are f***ed.
Little John

Post by Little John »

Something that may turn out to be pivotal to the result of this referendum has just occurred to me and so I wonder why the MSM has not made mention of it;

800 thousand people out of 4.2 million elected to vote by post and their votes are already in. The deadline for their votes was last week. This represent 20% of the total vote. When polls are done, they disregard the undecided and must also, presumably, disregard the postal voters. However, I wonder what the voting tendencies of the postal voters are. Given a 20% share of the total vote and, given the 1 or 2 percent difference, at most between the two camps in any of the recent polls, the postal voters are absolutely pivotal to the outcome. My suspicion is that they will be majority YES voters.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

With the polls close as dammit to 50/50, everything is "pivotal" in this referendum.

No idea about the postal votes...
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Someone has noticed that the BBC have not been quite fair:
Amazing scenes outside BBC Scotland HQ as thousands protest at anti-indy bias
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/sc ... -indy-bias
Tarrel
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Post by Tarrel »

The postal votes will be counted on Thursday night, along with all the others. FWIW, Highland Council were reporting Friday that postal "turnout" was running at around 74%, with more still to come in, obviously.
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