Scotland Watch

[Tarrel]

it is very difficult for the average person south of the border to understand this difference in mindset,

Sound observations, Tarrel. I've visited Scotland many times and do see the different mindset. And I prefer it. I think I'm hoping for a 'No', not because I think a 'Yes' will be bad for Scotland but because it may be bad for England.

Move north now and avoid the rush!

[vtsnowedin]

L I don't know why the people of Scotland should have this more inclusive, egalitarian point of view. Perhaps its something to do with sparse populations struggling to survive in harsh conditions? I've seen similar attitudes in Canada.

Once you get west of Quebec many of the original settlers of Canada were Scottish and started out working for the Hudson's Bay Company. I remember being surprised on my first visit to Ottawa when a store clerk called me Laddie with a burr that would do any Highlander proud. Being used to tough northern winters made the move from Scotland to Ottawa a natural fit for the Scots.

[Tarrel]

L I don't know why the people of Scotland should have this more inclusive, egalitarian point of view. Perhaps its something to do with sparse populations struggling to survive in harsh conditions? I've seen similar attitudes in Canada.

Once you get west of Quebec many of the original settlers of Canada were Scottish and started out working for the Hudson's Bay Company. I remember being surprised on my first visit to Ottawa when a store clerk called me Laddie with a burr that would do any Highlander proud. Being used to tough northern winters made the move from Scotland to Ottawa a natural fit for the Scots.

Yes, and I understand the HBC specifically recruited Orcadians (from Orkney) due to their resilience and ability to withstand harsh climates and conditions.

[UndercoverElephant]

Oh dear, Mr Undercover"Home Counties" Interests Elephant, I think that you've left out the your usual [yet essential] bit about the population / resources balance.

Sure, there's plenty of natural resources per head compared to the rest of the UK. It's not so much that Scotland couldn't have made a go of it as an independent nation, but that this specific yes campaign has been a total shambles, run by a bunch incompetent morons. Alex Salmond didn't actually need to get into such a complete mess on the currency, on Europe, on defence and on countless other issues. He got into that mess because he's very arrogant, and much better at delivering a clever line than actually coming up with a good political strategy or real solutions to real problems. Scotland is in no position to become independent at this point in time, because several very basic policy issues have not been sorted out. Do you really want Scotland to be run by a bunch of people who have had years to sort out credible answers to questions like "what currency will you use?", but still haven't managed to do so three weeks before the referendum takes place?

Alex Salmond, not so long ago, claimed that "for many years, Sterling has been a millstone around Scotland's neck". That was bollocks. Now he's saying "It's our currency, and you can't stop us using it!" Guess what? That's also bollocks, because it is based on the absurd notion that a currency is an asset, and that an independent Scotland has as much right to be in a currency union with the rest of the UK as it does to a share of the UK's gold reserves.

There's a lesson here, for those willing to learn something, and it's that Alex Salmond simply hates the English and will say or do anything that feeds his hatred. If he was even remotely rational then he wouldn't end up talking so much bollocks. He doesn't want "Scottish independence". What he wants is to have his cake and eat it - he wants all the benefits of independence, but none of the drawbacks. He wants the freedom to have total political control, while somebody else (and he doesn't care whether it's the English or the Germans) picks up the tab. And it's a fantasy. And that's why I genuinely hope there's a Yes outcome, because I'm going to find it highly amusing when these Scottish nationalists find out where they've actually been led by Mr Salmond. Moses he is not.

[vtsnowedin]

I get to watch this from a safe distance. I don't know anything about the competence of the independence movements leaders so your take on that carries the day. I can't see why Scotland with the hard assets it possesses , Land , housing, factories, retail buildings etc. and that bit of oil is not just as well off per capita then the rest of the Uk. That becomes the backing for their currency with whatever name they give it and then it comes down to spending vs. tax income and I can't imagine them doing any worse then the UK or the USA for that matter.
Here is a question for you. If they win will they copy your national health care system or make major changes in it. The answer to that might settle the question.

[UndercoverElephant]

Can't answer that question without coming back to the currency (which is exactly the response given by Alistair Darling, leader of the no campaign, when the NHS was brought up by Salmond in the televised debate two days ago). The UK currently spends more on Scots, per head, than English people, via the NHS. But if Scotland, once independent, wants to keep on spending money like that then it has to use some sort of currency. And if the currency it will be using is sterling outside of a currency union, which appears the most likely outcome at the moment, then it will have to run a budget surplus. And if it has to run a budget surplus at all, let alone at a time when it has huge one-off costs to pay as it sets itself up as an independent nation and can't borrow on the international markets because it has just defaulted on its debt (Salmond has said he'll do this if a currency union is refused) then it is not going to be able to sustain anything like the same level of public spending.

So the short answer is: Scotland would love to go on providing its citizens with NHS-quality, free-at-the-point-of-delivery healthcare, but it will be a very long way from being able to afford it. It will actually have to make deep cuts in every area of public spending, at least for the first few years.

[UndercoverElephant]

And yes, Scotland could have its own currency, backed by its own resources and economy. Problems with this plan: the Scottish people overwhelmingly don't want it, nobody is making plans to do it or even talking seriously about it and probably most importantly, it would leave the Scottish currency a hostage to future oil revenue.

[biffvernon]

this specific yes campaign has been a total shambles, run by a bunch incompetent morons.

Yet here we are with none of us quite sure what the outcome of the vote will be. From a position where the notion of independence was unthinkable not so many years ago, the politics has shifted a long way. What would have happened if it had been competent people not creating a shambles?

[Little John]

I have no particular love of the SNP and I find Salmond himself to be a pompous bugger with more than a whiff of English xenophobia about him. Nevertheless, I can completely understand the desire of the Scots to be free of the yoke of Westminster and it's slavishly mammon-obsessed, neo-liberal, London-centric agenda. The political stakes are far bigger than the immediate fortunes of the SNP or it's leader and what precisely happens in the next few months, or even years, to the Scottish economy. Though, those things will certainly affect the difficulties of any transition to independence. The stakes are far bigger than that. They are about the historical trajectory of the people and culture of that part of this island called Scotland. Speaking as a North-Eastern person, I find I consistently have far more in common with that culture than I do with a South-Eastern-English one. Which is why, as someone who will still be in the part of this island that remains the UK, I will be very sorry if Scotland does achieve independence since it will mean that, electorally, what remains may move even further to the right.

[Tarrel]

For those who want to get a sense of the debate up here, BBC Radio Scotland is quite a handy resource. They currently have a live phone in with Danny Alexander, on behalf of "Better Together" (until 10.30 - may be available on iPlayer later?). Tomorrow they have Alex Salmond on behalf of "Yes", from 9.00 till 10.30.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radioscotland

[UndercoverElephant]

this specific yes campaign has been a total shambles, run by a bunch incompetent morons.

Yet here we are with none of us quite sure what the outcome of the vote will be. From a position where the notion of independence was unthinkable not so many years ago, the politics has shifted a long way. What would have happened if it had been competent people not creating a shambles?

If there was some serious talent in the SNP then we might well have been heading towards a likely yes vote.

[Potemkin Villager]

The dream ticket - Scotland leaves the UK, but stays in the EU, and the UK leaves the EU!

"If it wasn't for the border what would we do?"


Endless opportunities for smuggling again along the Northern Ireland/ROI land border, and along, lets call it the Wall between England and Scotland, and between Wales and ROI, and between England and mainland Europe.

If the Scots don't do it now they will spend eternity wondering what might have been.

As a non resident half Scot I say go for it.

[Standuble]

In the case of Scottish independence what are the odds in your humble opinion of the border potentially becoming like a mini version of the US-Mexico border?

[Tarrel]

In the case of Scottish independence what are the odds in your humble opinion of the border potentially becoming like a mini version of the US-Mexico border?

It depends.

One scenario could be that iScotland joins the EU and, then, the Schengen agreement, while the UK votes to exit the EU in a referendum in 2016. In this case, visitors travelling north would be entering the EU and its borderless region, so it's pretty certain there would have to be some kind of border control.

Another is that both remain in the EU and Scotland stays out of Schengen, in which case things would, I imagine, stay pretty much as they are now. (Similar to the border between Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.)

I can't quite see a heavily patrolled border with "illegals" trying to sneak into Scotland, but you never know!

[biffvernon]

Craig Murray has a nice take:

The British Government is deeply, deeply immoral. They don’t care how many people they kill abroad if it advances them. Anybody who votes No [to Scottish independence] is voting to support a pathological state which is a danger in the world, a rogue state and a state prepared to go to war to make a few people wealthy,

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140828/1924283 ... State.html