Russia-in-secret-plot-against-fracking-Nato-chief-says

[UndercoverElephant]

We will stop burning fossil fuels when, and only when, it becomes uneconomic to do so. We will stop taking fish from the sea when, and only when, it becomes uneconomic to do so. There is absolutely no prospect of any other outcome.

Ahh, yes. Sigh. "If I don't burn it, someone else will". "If I don't eat it, someone else will". Grrr, what a passive, selfish and defeatist attitude.

Unfortunately, the reality is that if only one quarter of the population take this attitude then what I've said will come true. And that in itself ensures that almost everybody will take that attitude. You can call this "defeatist", but it's just the reality of the situation we are in.

An American I was in conversation with said something about whether she could take an item on a plane and I replied I wouldn't know as 'I don't use planes'. This made her sit up straight and led to another interesting conversation...about tv, politics, meat eating, pet keeping, fossil fuels, all sorts. As I say, it's not much but it's all you can do and gave her food for thought when she was burning that jet fuel.

And even if that was the last plane she ever got on, it still won't make any difference to the final outcome.

"Defeat" implies victory was once possible. It was never possible. Therefore my position is not one of defeatism. On the contrary, yours is a position of hope for the impossible. It was never possible to build a human civilisation where this sort of thing does not happen, and it never will be.

[Little John]

Yes, human civilisation is the fundamental and unsolvable problem. That poster from India who posts his long and tiresome diatribes on here occasionally, for all his apparent idiocy, is not wrong about that. Although, even he is not prepared to take the argument to its logical conclusion.

It's not industrial civilisation that's the problem. It's civilisation.

[UndercoverElephant]

Yes, human civilisation is the fundamental and unsolvable problem. That poster from India who posts his long and tiresome diatribes on here occasionally, for all his apparent idiocy, is not wrong about that. Although, even he is not prepared to take the argument to its logical conclusion.

It's not industrial civilisation that's the problem. It's civilisation.

Actually, my last post may have been slightly wrong. Was it ever possible to build a civilisation where this didn't happen? What would it require? Firstly, a deep connection/reverence with/for nature and the land. Secondly, a willingness to enforce potentially unpopular policies, via means of coercion, propaganda, or whatever it took. They would have to be very organised, rather ruthless, and very much inclined to get the masses working for the common good, with little care for the rights of the individual, especially the individual who didn't fit in with the Big Plan. And they would have to eliminate other civilisations which weren't willing or able to share their goals.

Ah yes. There was once a civilisation/ideology that fitted that description.



http://www.martindurkin.com/blogs/nazi- ... nt-history

[emordnilap]

Yes, I admit to thinking utopian.

I have principles. If you don't like them, I have others.

We can evolve. We have evolved.

Human beings emulate the people around them because it makes them feel safe. This is a basic instinct and we're usually not aware we're doing it. Being unusual or abnormal makes a person feel exposed and nervous.

In the modern world, most of us live with very little true danger in our lives, yet we remain viscerally afraid of taking unusual approaches to work and personal fulfillment, even if they're better approaches.

As we leave childhood, we unwittingly dial down our imagination and our ambition, because an ancient and out-of-touch part of our minds tells us they are dangerous. Creativity suffers, and so do our prospects for personal greatness and happiness.

That is the great cost of our ironclad survival instinct: we tend to get most of our values from others. While these values may suit the herd very well, they often don't fit the individual. We are all in great danger of living lives conceived by others.

There is a small but growing proportion of the population that recognizes these pressures and their danger to the world. They are responsible for most of our moral and cultural progress, because they don't gravitate towards norms. They find better ways to live and work, and often the norms begin to gravitate towards them.

They are freer and better at being happy, because they understand that the standard prescribed by the norm is very low compared to what is possible for a fully engaged human being. I'm convinced it is these people who will save the human world from its current trend of self-destruction.

[PS_RalphW]

The mistake is to equate evolution with progress.

Evolution is random, and directionless mutation (either physical or cultural). If it improves the short term chances of survival for the unit of life/culture then it thrives and becomes part of the gene/meme pool. If it outcompetes other units performing the same function, it often drives the others to extinction. Once the competition is eradicated, that is evolution. If the environment then changes again that makes the mutation unviable, it is then too late to revert to the previous form. If a new variant or a throwback does not emerge in time, the unit can become extinct itself.

We could easily evolve ourselves into extinction.

[Little John]

Yes, exactly, all of that.

[emordnilap]

'Equate' - yes, you're right Ralph but I use 'evolve' loosely. Thus - loosely speaking - abolishing human slavery is evolution; some might not see it as progress.

[PS_RalphW]

Back (a bit closer ) to the thread topic,

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/newsdesk/e ... oil-spills

Russia admits to spilling one percent of its oil production each year. That is
100,000 barrels a DAY.

The real level of spills may be higher.

We forget just how decrepit the Soviet era infrastructure was, and how crony capitalism has taken over and done nothing at all to clean up their act.

If you want to see the future of Western oil fields under neo-liberal control 20 years past peak, look no further.

[kenneal - lagger]

It's what TTIP could do for us as well as Fracking "Wild West Style" and all on the minimum wage, if that's allowed under that agreement!